Siskos prejudice?

[Laughing Dragon]

Am I the only person who thinks that Sisko was acting like an absolute dick to Nog here? Prejudice and all? I found him a bit aggressive in this too. He even says you are a Ferengi as a reason to discourage him. What bothers me more is he is just a kid. Many people were seen as criminals in the US coming over here. Or what if he said you are a Jew or black? I knew an Italian family whose grandad was discriminated in college because of the mafia as they were all seen as criminals. Luckily it worked out well for the guy. People are more blown away at the acting here especially Aaron. So, they may not see it and they are used to the Ferengi being a certain way but this is truly awful. I know he did not like Jake hanging out with him when he was helping him too. It seemed unreasonable. Children aren't born bad so it's like saying he had inferior genes, and it was inevitable. Dukat was treated better.

 

[FredH]

You’re not wrong. But of course in the long run Sisko overcomes that prejudice and does back Nog.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

You’re not wrong. But of course in the long run Sisko overcomes that prejudice and does back Nog.

True. But I also think they wrote all that for the drama of course. I mean a Ferengi wanting to join Starfleet was not before seen. I just think they went about it the wrong way. And Sisko was definitely too aggressive. I almost expected him to rough him up. I was honestly not expecting this response, lol. But it did bring out some incredible acting. But they cannot take away the approach in my head. It's kind of given Ben a black eye to me on some ways.

Also, forgot to include in my OP this. THE scene.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[at Quark's]

My head canon has always been that Sisko is deliberately coming down hard on him there, to get to the bottom of it, to see what Nog's motivations truly are and to weed out any bullshitting.

But I agree that it seems too hard and prejudiced.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I've sat through some of my son's interviews for ROTC. Don't think for a second that the military officials aren't trying every angle to see what motivates potential cadets. They aren't nice.

Judgement: not prejudice.

(ETA: the only things different were that the person interviewing my son was not a Shakesperean actor and he did not reach across the table to shake him.)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

My head canon has always been that Sisko is deliberately coming down hard on him there, to get to the bottom of it, to see what Nog's motivations truly are and to weed out any bullshitting.

But I agree that it seems too hard and prejudiced.

Yeah, I get that he was trying to be intimidating. But I guess I felt he meant what he said. But that's good head canon.

I've sat through some of my son's interviews for ROTC. Don't think for a second that the military officials aren't trying every angle to see what motivates potential cadets. They aren't nice.

Judgement: not prejudice.

(ETA: the only things different were that the person interviewing my son was not a Shakesperean actor and he did not reach across the table to shake him.)

But SF is not the military. They are explorers. Are you saying drill sergeants yell Jew and stuff and say it's just them toughening them up?

ETA: Just saw your ETA.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But SF is not the military. They are explorers. Are you saying drill sergeants yell Jew and stuff and say it's just them toughening them up?

Starfleet Academy is a service academy, potentially teaching all the same decision processes and preparing them for situations that are equally as dangerous.

 

[Photon]

Am I the only person who thinks that Sisko was acting like an absolute dick to Nog here? Prejudice and all? I found him a bit aggressive in this too. He even says you are a Ferengi as a reason to discourage him. What bothers me more is he is just a kid. Many people were seen as criminals in the US coming over here. Or what if he said you are a Jew or black? I knew an Italian family whose grandad was discriminated in college because of the mafia as they were all seen as criminals. Luckily it worked out well for the guy. People are more blown away at the acting here especially Aaron. So, they may not see it and they are used to the Ferengi being a certain way but this is truly awful. I know he did not like Jake hanging out with him when he was helping him too. It seemed unreasonable. Children aren't born bad so it's like saying he had inferior genes, and it was inevitable. Dukat was treated better.

Children ARE born bad. Parents have to teach them to do good. Your premise is entirely off, man's nature is evil that nature has to be quelled by someone more powerful

 

[FredH]

Look, Sisko has a lot of qualities, but I’ve never felt “nice” was one of them. He’s got his gray areas.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Uh... dont know if you are kidding...

Children ARE born bad. Parents have to teach them to do good. Your premise is entirely off, man's nature is evil that nature has to be quelled by someone more powerful

Ahhh... but if he said children in general are born bad that's one thing but not all mighty humans in his head certainly like his probably born saintly son. And other races too that aren't Ferengi. He called him a Ferengi specifically as a bad thing. Do you really think Sisko thinks this of his own kid? His son was too good to hang around Nog. Not that he would willingly get up to mischief with him.

Let's just put aside that argument nature vs nurture, ok, and keep it in context to the scene. I brought in genes. Not the nature of children but his attitude to Ferengi's as a group.

Oh, and I was not born bad. I was a good kid like many. Not perfect but I am pretty sure not your level of bad. Children arrent all animals/idiots. There are just some that are more immature than others. Oh, and Nog was already a "good" kid since he himself had a bad influence and it was a personal choice on his end to be different. So, it kind of cancels all that out.

Look, Sisko has a lot of qualities, but I’ve never felt “nice” was one of them. He’s got his gray areas.

I am laughing that racism is morally grey. I got that message from the show. That was its thing. Not sure it was this scene, lol. More like what Garak did with the Romulan senator. And anyway, lets step away from the politics of a sci fi show and think about it in RL terms. Let's replace Ferengi with black. Just as a hypothetical.

Oh, and did you not thumb up my OP? If I did not understand this post, then disregard what I said.

Starfleet Academy is a service academy, potentially teaching all the same decision processes and preparing them for situations that are equally as dangerous.

But it's not the military. They said their ships are mostly built for exploration. But of course they have safety measures. Now Cardassians, that is more like how a military acts.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But it's not the military. They said their ships are mostly built for exploration. But of course they have safety measures. Now Cardassians, that is more like how a military acts.

Facts:
Starfleet Acadmey is where young people learn to maneuver heavily armed and heavily armored vehicles.
It is where they learn how to respond to emergencies as the ship is being fired upon.
It is where they learn to defend computer systems from intrusion.
etc.

Other than being in space and in the future, it's not that different than the Naval Academy.

 

[kkt]

Yes, Sisko had some prejudice against Ferengi. He had to, in order for them to tell a story about him overcoming his prejudice and recommending Nog for Starfleet Academy.

And it's not surprising. Ferengi values are not exactly Federation values, are they? The Federation doesn't even have a concept of profit.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Yes, Sisko had some prejudice against Ferengi. He had to, in order for them to tell a story about him overcoming his prejudice and recommending Nog for Starfleet Academy.

And it's not surprising. Ferengi values are not exactly Federation values, are they? The Federation doesn't even have a concept of profit.

Well, of course it's the story. I mentioned it twice. It's how he went about it. He could have just said he did not think he was the right material without calling him a Ferengi in the bad way. Jews were seen as suspicious. Since Trek mirrors and is a commentary on RL and social issues included it came off as bad. It could be Brooks "overacting" that made it more dramatic. the Federation are basically communists when it comes to money.

 

[fireproof78]

Children ARE born bad. Parents have to teach them to do good. Your premise is entirely off, man's nature is evil that nature has to be quelled by someone more powerful

Especially human children. We had to evolve to become better in the 24th century. McCoy's jokes wouldn't have flown then.

And, yes, I think Sisko is predjudiced.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's almost like it's a drama where people have problems they need to overcome!

 

[fireproof78]

It's almost like it's a drama where people have problems they need to overcome!

Since when?!?

 

[Tosk]

My head canon has always been that Sisko is deliberately coming down hard on him there, to get to the bottom of it, to see what Nog's motivations truly are and to weed out any bullshitting.

I don't think you even need head canon for that. IMO, that's clearly what is going on and intended to be read that way.

Edit: The script explicitly states it:

NOG
(finally blurts out the truth)
Because I don't want to end up like my father.

Sisko calms down. He was only acting angry to push Nog to reveal his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet.

-----

There's also a great omitted scene in the script for the episode, taking place after Sisko and Dax discuss Nog's motivations:

SISKO
Okay, so we know he's a hard worker,
but the question remains: Why does
he want to join Starfleet?

DAX
I have no idea.

SISKO
So we still can't be sure if he's
serious or if this is all part of
some elaborate scam.

Before Dax can answer...

Quark and Rom approach Sisko.

QUARK
Commander, we need to talk.

SISKO
Go right ahead.

QUARK
It's about my nephew.

SISKO
Somehow, I'm not surprised.

QUARK
Rom, tell Commander Sisko what's on
your mind.

ROM
Well, the thing is... I'm not quite
sure...

QUARK
(interrupting)
What my brother's trying to say is
he's furious that you'd even consider
allowing his son to attend Starfleet
Academy.
(to Rom)
Isn't that right?

ROM
Well, I...

QUARK
(interrupting)
You see. He can barely speak he's
so angry. Now we... I mean, he...
demands you refuse the boy's request
and return his latinum immediately.

SISKO
Rom, is that what you want?

ROM
The thing is... we've always
assumed... that is... I did promise
that Nog would become... my brother's
apprentice...

DAX
That explains things.

QUARK
Lieutenant, please, this is between
my brother and Commander Sisko.

SISKO
Actually, that's not true. Your...
brother's feelings aren't at issue
here. According to both Federation
law and Ferengi tradition, Nog is
old enough to make his own decisions.

ROM
You see, brother, I told you.

SISKO
(to Quark)
And as for the latinum, must I remind
you of the first Rule of Acquisition?

ROM
(smiling)
"Once you have their money, you never
give it back." It's one of my
brother's favorites.
(to Quark)
Isn't that so, Brother?

QUARK
I'm not going to stand here and argue
Rules of Acquisition with a human.

DAX
Especially one who knows them as
well as you.

QUARK
(ignoring her, to Sisko)
That apprenticeship money is
rightfully mine. And I will protest
your actions to the Nagus himself if
I have to.

SISKO
Give the Nagus my best.

ROM
Can we leave now, brother?

The two of them start to walk away.

QUARK
Would you stop calling me that?

ROM
Calling you what?

QUARK
"Brother."

ROM
But you are my brother.
(a beat)
Unless mother lied to us.

QUARK
(wistful)
If only that were true.

As Rom and Quark walk away down the Promenade...

45 CLOSE ON SISKO AND DAX

As they exchange an amused look.

DAX
So I take it you are going to write
Nog's letter of recommendation?

SISKO
I don't know. That depends on Nog.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

And it's not surprising. Ferengi values are not exactly Federation values, are they?

He could have just said he did not think he was the right material without calling him a Ferengi in the bad way.

Nog's values and intentions are fair game. He's not applying to college. He is trying to earn a position of trust.

 

[kkt]

I don't think you even need head canon for that. IMO, that's clearly what is going on and intended to be read that way.

Edit: The script explicitly states it:

NOG
(finally blurts out the truth)
Because I don't want to end up like my father.

Sisko calms down. He was only acting angry to push Nog to reveal his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet.

-----

There's also a great omitted scene in the script for the episode, taking place after Sisko and Dax discuss Nog's motivations:

SISKO
Okay, so we know he's a hard worker,
but the question remains: Why does
he want to join Starfleet?

DAX
I have no idea.

SISKO
So we still can't be sure if he's
serious or if this is all part of
some elaborate scam.

Before Dax can answer...

Quark and Rom approach Sisko.

QUARK
Commander, we need to talk.

SISKO
Go right ahead.

QUARK
It's about my nephew.

SISKO
Somehow, I'm not surprised.

QUARK
Rom, tell Commander Sisko what's on
your mind.

ROM
Well, the thing is... I'm not quite
sure...

QUARK
(interrupting)
What my brother's trying to say is
he's furious that you'd even consider
allowing his son to attend Starfleet
Academy.
(to Rom)
Isn't that right?

ROM
Well, I...

QUARK
(interrupting)
You see. He can barely speak he's
so angry. Now we... I mean, he...
demands you refuse the boy's request
and return his latinum immediately.

SISKO
Rom, is that what you want?

ROM
The thing is... we've always
assumed... that is... I did promise
that Nog would become... my brother's
apprentice...

DAX
That explains things.

QUARK
Lieutenant, please, this is between
my brother and Commander Sisko.

SISKO
Actually, that's not true. Your...
brother's feelings aren't at issue
here. According to both Federation
law and Ferengi tradition, Nog is
old enough to make his own decisions.

ROM
You see, brother, I told you.

SISKO
(to Quark)
And as for the latinum, must I remind
you of the first Rule of Acquisition?

ROM
(smiling)
"Once you have their money, you never
give it back." It's one of my
brother's favorites.
(to Quark)
Isn't that so, Brother?

QUARK
I'm not going to stand here and argue
Rules of Acquisition with a human.

DAX
Especially one who knows them as
well as you.

QUARK
(ignoring her, to Sisko)
That apprenticeship money is
rightfully mine. And I will protest
your actions to the Nagus himself if
I have to.

SISKO
Give the Nagus my best.

ROM
Can we leave now, brother?

The two of them start to walk away.

QUARK
Would you stop calling me that?

ROM
Calling you what?

QUARK
"Brother."

ROM
But you are my brother.
(a beat)
Unless mother lied to us.

QUARK
(wistful)
If only that were true.

As Rom and Quark walk away down the Promenade...

45 CLOSE ON SISKO AND DAX

As they exchange an amused look.

DAX
So I take it you are going to write
Nog's letter of recommendation?

SISKO
I don't know. That depends on Nog.

I like that omitted scene. But on the other hand I can see that it doesn't advance the plot very much and would be a candidate to be cut because of that.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

It's almost like it's a drama where people have problems they need to overcome!

I am laughing at most people in here. So defensive and patronizing. Yeesh it's hard to have a discussion in a serious capacity around here. You are not cool in your words or wise and I did not challenge this and sounds pretty uniform in pretentiousness of DS9 fans and their obsession with "realism." Talking down to others. I am talking about the delivery and how it came off. I sometimes wonder if this is actually a discussion forum. The obvious serious discussion if Data is a sexist aside - refreshing.

-------

Should not expect anything different from a forum that denied the actor who played Garak's words that he played him gay because they did not respect the actors, lol. Also, I don't look at clips of proof. Paraphrasing. I don't mean to judge everyone. Oh, and realism it's also about-facing opposing viewpoints that you don't like. The real realism would be Nog feeling like he was just talked down to by a racist. ST loves allegories. Go there.

Also, since when does delivery have anything to do with complex characterization which I am assuming people think I am challenging? I cannot seem to say approach and delivery enough. Not the first-time people cant seem to absorb anything. Maybe you just did not read the whole thread.

Nog's values and intentions are fair game. He's not applying to college. He is trying to earn a position of trust.

Bad thoughts... are you having bad thoughts?