Sisko's Actions-In the Pale Moonlight vs. Tacking Into The Wind

[Knight Templar]

Sisko's actions in the 6th season episode "In the Pale Moonlight" have been debated for years.

Was Sisko right or wrong to trick the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion?

But what I wonder is why little or no debate about Sisko's actions in "Tacking Into the Wind".

In it, Sisko is worried (enraged) that Klingon Chancellor Gowron is deliberately sending Klingon forces under General Martok on suicide missions to undermine him politically, and endangering the entire war effort by wasting Klingon resources.

IIRC, Sisko confronts Worf about it and Worf says Klingon leaders have often placed their own interests ahead of that of the Empire.

Now, IIRC Sisko basically tells Worf to "deal with Gowron" or something to that effect. The way the scene plays out, it seems to me that Sisko knows full well that the only way to "deal with Gowron" is for Worf to challenge and kill him and he expects him to do it?

Isn't effectively ordering a Starfleet officer to basically stage a coup against the long time leader of a Federation ally much, much worse than what Sisko did in "In The Pale Moonlight"? After all, the Romulans were not even allies of the Federation.

And before you say that Worf acted in accordance with Klingon law, remember that Worf is a member of Starfleet. When Worf acted in accordance with Klingon law and tradition in "Reunion" (ST:TNG) Picard chewed him out about it. He certainly did not condone it or order it.

Of course, what Sisko did is basically what the Kennedy Admin. did to Diem the leader of South Vietnam in 1963.

 

[BennyRussel]

Picard chewed Worf out and then went back to his tea. There were no long-term repercussions, no court martial or reduction in rank.

I always thought it was funny how Worf basically revenge-killed a guy, then just went back to his station. I'm not even sure if he took a shower first.

The lesson as always: Don't F with Worf.

 

[IntrepidMan]

I will have to watch "Tacking into the Wind" and get back to you. But yes, "Don't F with Worf" seems like a good lesson in any case.

 

[Knight Templar]

I'm not really interested in Worf. I'm talking about Sisko. Looking at the episode it sure looks like he is fully aware of what his ORDER to Worf will result in.

Like I said, to me he is basically ORDERING one of his officers to overthrow and kill the long time leader of an ALLIED power

 

[BennyRussel]

^ I beg your pardon.

 

[Knight Templar]

Picard chewed Worf out and then went back to his tea. There were no long-term repercussions, no court martial or reduction in rank.

.

Actually in "Reunion" IIRC, a permanent reprimand was put in Worf's record by Picard.

 

[NKemp3]

I'm not really interested in Worf. I'm talking about Sisko. Looking at the episode it sure looks like he is fully aware of what his ORDER to Worf will result in.

Like I said, to me he is basically ORDERING one of his officers to overthrow and kill the long time leader of an ALLIED power

It looks that way. Always has. We DS9 fans have discussed/debated this for years. Look go back before In The Pale Moonlight. Sisko's journey down that dark road started with "For the Uniform" and continued to ITPML and then with "Tacking In the Wind". Were these actions justifiable or moral? Debatable. Did they go against the Federation's rule of law? Probably. But I loved all of it because those actions are in part what makes Sisko so unique in Star Trek lore and so fascinatingly complicated.

 

[Eric Cheung]

It seems like a possible progression toward those justifications because in Blood Oath, Sisko certainly didn't condone what would be considered Klingon justice being carried out by one of his officers. He was even still mad at the end of the episode when Dax reported back to her station.

 

[Sindatur]

I think part of Sisko's position with Worf was, that Worf put Gowron in that position in the first place.

 

[Pavonis]

Geez, don't Klingons ever just talk? Couldn't Sisko have expected Worf to confront Gowron about his actions with regards to Martok without expecting Worf to kill Gowron?

 

[Durek]

Geez, don't Klingons ever just talk? Couldn't Sisko have expected Worf to confront Gowron about his actions with regards to Martok without expecting Worf to kill Gowron?

Don't Klingons ever just talk? Ummmmm..no.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I think Sisko's actions in ITPM, though maybe not the spit and polish we've come to expect of Starfleeters, was understandable--given the circumstances. The UFP-Klingon alliance is getting their asses handed to them, all the other major powers have taken and step back and not wanted to get involved, but the alliance needs help.

The Romulans have been one of the major powers for centuries, so it makes sense to try and get them involved in the conflict. Though Sisko does what he does for his own reasons, eventually the Dominion would have turned on the other governments in the AQ after the UFP and Klingons were defeated.

Its been a while since I watched TITW, so I'll need to go back and watch it again, before I feel comfortable enough to comment.

Whenever discussions of what happened in the Dominion War crop up, I always think of a line Garak says from "Rocks and Shoals":
Chief O'Brien: There are rules, Garak, even in a war.
Garak: Correction. Humans have rules in war. Rules that tend to make victory a little harder to achieve, in my opinion.


It's very true, humans apply their morality to warfare, but not every species will do so. In order to win battles, gain ground, survive and eventually win, sometimes the rules of war have to be broken in order to achieve the most favourable outcome. The needs of the many and all that also apply.

But that's just my take on it.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Geez, don't Klingons ever just talk? Couldn't Sisko have expected Worf to confront Gowron about his actions with regards to Martok without expecting Worf to kill Gowron?

Don't Klingons ever just talk? Ummmmm..no.

Well they do, but its only ever about honour

 

[Sykonee]

Geez, don't Klingons ever just talk? Couldn't Sisko have expected Worf to confront Gowron about his actions with regards to Martok without expecting Worf to kill Gowron?

Worf did try the 'talk' method first, appealing to Martok to go against Gowron. That didn't work. He then tried talking to Gowron during that meeting, but Gowron wasn't having it, demeaning whatever Worf had to say as irrelevant due to him being in Starfleet.

That's when Worf did his "What I have to say is as a member of the House Of Martok, not as a Starfleet officer" spiel. Gowron didn't take it kindly, and challenged Worf to the fight.

I'm sure Sisko suspected things might come to that, knowing how Klingons tends to go about things 'politically', but probably hoped it wouldn't.

 

[Knight Templar]

My point in starting the thread was that it seems like over the years that we've seen the actions of Sisko in drawing the Romulans into the war debated near endlesslly.

But his "Tacking Into The Wind" actions don't seem mentioned often.

Or is it just a case of it getting caught up in all the events of the end of the war?

 

[Sjaddix]

Gowron was as u said endangering the war effort so he had o be dealt with. Its better for Gowron to die then for the Federation to lose the war.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

His exact words, I hink, were "Do whatever it takes." As was the case with he Romulans, Sisko knew it was a matter of victory or defeat. And, questionable as it seems, he did not ask Worf to do anything that went against Worf's personal code of honor or Klingon honor in general.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

My point in starting the thread was that it seems like over the years that we've seen the actions of Sisko in drawing the Romulans into the war debated near endlesslly.

But his "Tacking Into The Wind" actions don't seem mentioned often.

Or is it just a case of it getting caught up in all the events of the end of the war?

Perhaps it's because after the "shock" of ITPM, him telling Worf to deal with Gowron was no big deal.

 

[indolover]

As with all things in life, Sisko's comment depends on subjective interpretation. "Do whatever it takes" may mean anything to anybody.

That said, Worf was a noble Klingon, who at one time was head of a Great House. Even as part of Martok's family, due to Martok being a great/significant general, the House of Martok had some standing in a sense. As a Klingon warrior, and a noble Klingon by birth, he had every right to challenge Gowron for the Chancellorship. Sisko's comment was probably said with that in mind.

 

[Sindatur]

As with all things in life, Sisko's comment depends on subjective interpretation. "Do whatever it takes" may mean anything to anybody.

That said, Worf was a noble Klingon, who at one time was head of a Great House. Even as part of Martok's family, due to Martok being a great/significant general, the House of Martok had some standing in a sense. As a Klingon warrior, and a noble Klingon by birth, he had every right to challenge Gowron for the Chancellorship. Sisko's comment was probably said with that in mind.

Eh...Worf was hired to deal with Klingon Matters and keep their alliance in line (Plus he put Gowron on the "Throne")

No different, than yelling at O'Brien to "Deal With It" when the Defiant is limping in the middle of a big fight.