Sick of War, want more Chick Exploration Fun

[fireproof78]

I think what it really shows is what we are capable of if society really wants to/needs to, and that it is kind of sad that usually war will be the only circumstance which will bring that mindset to achieve the hitherto impossible up in society. Exceptions exist but they are rare. For example the space race, and even that was a kind of 'war'.

United in a cause is a great way to join people together in common purpose.

 

[at Quark's]

Yes. If only that cause could (also) be something else than war ....

 

[fireproof78]

Yes. If only that cause could (also) be something else than war ....

Some day, maybe. Human beings are not as far removed from great acts of savagery many would like to think. What cause would that be to unite so many in a common purpose that could be very clear?

It's a great and fundamental question that has been tackled for years, so the idea that war is just going to be solved in Star Trek is perhaps a bit facetious. But, on the other hand, Star Trek has portrayed ideas of "we will not fight-not this day." Not a war without end but a possibility of common ground that ends the fighting for today.

But, it isn't in human nature.

 

[psCargile]

Peace is fine and dandy, until someone has more of what you want, or calls you a bad name.

 

[Kor]

War is a video game for teen boys, and inherently sexist: Imagine Trek Galaxy dominated by women: How much war would Chick Admirals launch against other species? None. War is a male thing. A Chick Galaxy is a Peaceful Galaxy. Nietzsche says "War is a Winter or Sleep for Culture." And also a sleep for science, exploration, justice, feminism, progress, human destiny.
...

I don't know how accurate it is to make an absolute blanket statement that "war is a male thing." But this reminds me... In college, one of my media studies professors was a feminist scholar. She introduced us to the idea that war and violence are male "values," and that finding empowerment through roles such as female action heroes is actually playing into the patriarchal system by participating in and thereby validating such violent values.

Kor

 

[Vger23]

I'm befuddled that anyone took this seriously.

 

[Greg Cox]

Nimoy insisted he kill off Spock, if war was all Trek did. He agreed to return from the dead, so long as the next Trek movie was about humpback whales in San Francisco....

Um, that's an interesting interpretation, but it bears no reality to what actually happened. TMP was not about wars, so that's not why Nimoy asked to be killed off. He agreed to do KHAN because he wanted to kill off Spock; he didn't demand to be killed because KHAN had battles in it. You've got things backwards there. He actually preferred KHAN to TMP, which is why he changed his mind about staying dead, that and opportunity to direct his first feature film.

Furthermore, it's simply not true that Nimoy agreed to TSFS on the condition that he could do the whale movie later on. The idea that TVH was going to be about saving the whales was developed after TSFS was released, not years earlier. Nobody, let alone Nimoy, was planning the fourth movie before he even agreed to direct the third. . ...

This is not a a matter of interpretation or ideology. This is the actual production history.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Um, that's an interesting interpretation, but it bears no reality to what actually happened. TMP was not about wars, so that's not why Nimoy asked to be killed off. He agreed to do KHAN because he wanted to kill off Spock; he didn't demand to be killed because KHAN had battles in it. You've got things backwards there. He actually preferred KHAN to TMP, which is why he changed his mind about staying dead, that and opportunity to direct his first feature film.

Furthermore, it's simply not true that Nimoy agreed to TSFS on the condition that he could do the whale movie later. The idea that TVH was going to be about saving the whales was developed after TSFS was released, not years earlier.. Nobody, let alone Nimoy, was planning the fourth movie before he even agreed to direct the third. . ...

This is not a a matter of interpretation or ideology. This is the actual production history.

Yup.

See for reference: I Am Spock, by Leonard Nimoy.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yup.

See for reference: I Am Spock, by Leonard Nimoy.

Trek author Howard Weinstein helped develop the idea for the whale movie. He's written about how that movie came together, based on his own firsthand experiences. And, no, Nimoy was not planning to make the whale movie way back before they made THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK, let alone making that a condition for his return.

 

[Vger23]

I've always maintained that having grand morals and high ideals of virtuous behavior is all fine and dandy...but not at all interesting or dramatic until those ideals and values are TESTED in the most uncomfortable sort of ways.

That's when you find out what you're really made of...and whether you're just full of it or whether you really ARE a more tolerant, peaceful, etc society.

Unfortunately, that's why the "war" scenario comes up in Trek occasionally. Trek's philosophy and virtues mean nothing unless they are tested. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of pompous spoiled assholes going from planet to planet on their high-horse. Nope, no good sir.

So I appreciate the "war" stuff, even though it's not my favorite approach to Trek. It has it's purpose and uses from a story standpoint. That said, my hope is that they continue to develop the series as one that eventually moves away from the "war" and finds other challenges to test our "Federation Ideals."

 

[MacLeod]

I think what it really shows is what we are capable of if society really wants to/needs to, and that it is kind of sad that usually war will be the only circumstance which will bring that mindset to achieve the hitherto impossible up in society. Exceptions exist but they are rare. For example the space race, and even that was a kind of 'war'.

It basically comes down to money, in war money tends to be no object if the end goal gives you an advantage over your enemy. During peace time your populance tends to prefer that money is spend on things like Education, Health etc...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Are you suggesting women can't be evil warmgoners? #sheevil #feminism

I think Trek needs the balance between the serious war plot lines and the fun adventure plotlines.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

In Trek, our gallant heroes never go out looking for a fight, but as the defensive arm of the Federation are ready for it if called upon. Never has any Trek episode glorified war and said it's a great thing, quite the contrary, it's often about how bad conflict is (you just have to watch "Nor The Battle To The Strong" and "The Siege of AR-558"), the horrors involved in it and the negative impact it has on the characters we've come to give a damn about.

 

[at Quark's]

It basically comes down to money, in war money tends to be no object if the end goal gives you an advantage over your enemy. During peace time your populance tends to prefer that money is spend on things like Education, Health etc...

Which are certainly good causes to spend money on. I'm curious though if these technical advances are or aren't ultimately more profitable for society (and hence have a larger payoff over the long term). Are we better off as a society with faster airplanes and computers and other such technologies? But I'll agree that I'm going offtopic now ...

 

[psCargile]

Generational Dynamics theorizes war and economies very well, but I'll leave it to you to research it on your own.

 

[Greg Cox]

In Trek, our gallant heroes never go out looking for a fight, but as the defensive arm of the Federation are ready for it if called upon. Never has any Trek episode glorified war and said it's a great thing, quite the contrary, it's often about how bad conflict is (you just have to watch "Nor The Battle To The Strong" and "The Siege of AR-558"), the horrors involved in it and the negative impact it has on the characters we've come to give a damn about.

Or "Balance of Terror," for that matter. Way back in Season One of the original series.

 

[GNDN18]

Or "Balance of Terror," for that matter. Way back in Season One of the original series.

Or, obliquely at least, Star Trek has been against war since 1964:

PIKE: Did they ever live on the surface of this planet? Why did they go underground?
VINA: War, thousands of centuries ago.

PIKE: That's why it's so barren up there?
VINA; The planet's only now becoming able to support life again.​

War: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Say it again: war.

 

[fireproof78]

Or, obliquely at least, Star Trek has been against war since 1964:

PIKE: Did they ever live on the surface of this planet? Why did they go underground?
VINA: War, thousands of centuries ago.
View attachment 3461
PIKE: That's why it's so barren up there?
VINA; The planet's only now becoming able to support life again.​

War: what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Say it again: war.

I really got a Pike vibe from Lorca after the destruction of the Glenn. You definitely get a sense of the pain that war brings and not just the 'splosions!

 

[Kor]

Never liked war in any Trek series, but watching youtube clips of STDS9 Dominion Wars, I suddenly realized I can no longer watch Trek if endless war and CGI battles (with explosion sounds in vacuum of space) is all Trek offers these days.

Gene's Hopeful Vision was that we evolve to a Colorblind Egalitarian Feminist Society of Enlightenment, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, with the Federation as a new United Nations that drives extinct socioeconomic injustice, war, poverty, hunger and disease. Why not?

Most TOS episodes have some moral revelation preached by Tiberius in last act, followed by some Spock-McCoy joke. Most STNG episodes have plausible science, real exploration, stars going nova, dilithium crystal hassles, new life forms, and my favorite male character: Q was not a warmonger, but a Loki Trickster revealing wonders of the universe for human destiny.

7 of 9, T'pol, Ezri Dax were my favorites as I never tire of watching and listening to them. How about more Space Babes? Why not?

War is a video game for teen boys, and inherently sexist: Imagine Trek Galaxy dominated by women: How much war would Chick Admirals launch against other species? None. War is a male thing. A Chick Galaxy is a Peaceful Galaxy. Nietzsche says "War is a Winter or Sleep for Culture." And also a sleep for science, exploration, justice, feminism, progress, human destiny.

Do sci fi story plots matter? Yes. Joseph Campbell reminds us that our own sense of self, sense of meaning, sense of destiny, is determined by the stories we tell ourselves. Mythology matters. Trek transcends entertainment. Gene's Hopeful Vision of Human Destiny is being warped by violent video game plots marketed to teen boys.

Gene based Trek on 1770's Voyages of Captain James Cook: Best parts of those voyages were the flora and fauna discovered by HMS Endeavour Science Officer Joseph Banks and the paintings of his brilliant artist Sydney Parkinson. Best parts were observing the Transit of Venus in Tahiti, Cook being first white man to map Antarctica, discovery of new native folk on every island and continent, discovery of Hawaii, Endeavour's shipwreck on Great Barrier Reef, stranding them in Australia, a whole new galaxy of natives and animals. Worst parts were Cook blasting cannon balls into native villages in Tahiti, New Zealand and Hawaii, as punishment for petty theft and the total failure of Race Relations, which soon caused his own death at age 50 when Hawaiians surrounded him and, to quote Hunter Thompson, "diced him up like pineapple."

I cannot watch any more CGI space battles and explosions making noise in vacuum of space.... Teen boys say peaceful stuff is boring, but I say STDS9 Dominion War CGI battles are boring and unwatchable. All the new Trek films and series are tedious unwatchable warmonger bull, violent video games for teen boys.

Nimoy insisted he kill off Spock, if war was all Trek did. He agreed to return from the dead, so long as the next Trek movie was about humpback whales in San Francisco....

If war is the only thing humans will do in Space, then we deserve to go extinct, or get absorbed by the Borg. War is so boring. Isn't there anything else to do in the Universe?

So OP, what are your thoughts on the ideas that have been expressed in response to your post thus far?

Kor

 

[plynch]

I too dislike "the war" as ongoing plot device. Didn't like it in DS9. Don't care for it in DSC. It just seems facile. "Why X?" "The war, of course." Though I do watch DSC to find out what comes next in the puzzle box that it is.

I like S-F that raises real what-if questions and doesn't necessarily have "beat-the-bad-guy" as its crux. ymmv