Shouldn't Quark's/the Promenade be open 26hrs/day?
- Thread starter IntrepidMan
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...But all such factors would tend to get negated if it's a space station rather than a surface installation we're talking about. Why would lack of demand or observance of an event fall on any specific hour in a facility that exists in a timeless environment? These things would be cyclic, yes, but why should the cycles be in synch? Maintenance at Jumja Kiosk shouldn't necessarily take place simultaneously with maintenance at Klingon Restaurant, and indeed there would be business advantages from carefully staying out of synch with your competitor.
Unless there's one dominant player that dictates the behavior of the masses no matter what the others do. And in this case, it could well be Quark's.
Timo Saloniemi
Unless there's one dominant player that dictates the behavior of the masses no matter what the others do. And in this case, it could well be Quark's.
Timo Saloniemi
^I agree that DS9 is more of a timeless environment, but since it is so close to Bajor and full of Bajorans, the station would probably synchronize its schedule with the Bajoran day--so, for example, the primary shift when all of the senior officers are on duty would coincide with the business day in the Bajoran capital, so that communicating with Bajoran leaders would be easier. In that case most of the people on the station would follow the same schedule and there would be a "late night" period when there isn't as much activity on the Promenade and in other places.
I dunno...I can't remember the episode at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Odo turned the lights off, i.e. left the Promenade in complete darkness.
And would Odo really dim the lights? I would think that for safety reasons he would keep lights on at full brightness whenever the Promenade was open, even if it was late at night. It is a public place and you never know who might be lurking around!
And for that matter, when were the bridge lights dimmed on TNG? IIRC Beverly commanded the bridge once during the night shift and the lights were on full strength. And it doesn't really make sense to me why they would dim the lights on the bridge at all--it's the command center and the people there should be alert at all times. Dimming the lights might encourage people to fall asleep! Dimming the corridors I can understand, especially corridors outside crew quarters, but the bridge?
I dunno...I can't remember the episode at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Odo turned the lights off, i.e. left the Promenade in complete darkness.
And would Odo really dim the lights? I would think that for safety reasons he would keep lights on at full brightness whenever the Promenade was open, even if it was late at night. It is a public place and you never know who might be lurking around!
And for that matter, when were the bridge lights dimmed on TNG? IIRC Beverly commanded the bridge once during the night shift and the lights were on full strength. And it doesn't really make sense to me why they would dim the lights on the bridge at all--it's the command center and the people there should be alert at all times. Dimming the lights might encourage people to fall asleep! Dimming the corridors I can understand, especially corridors outside crew quarters, but the bridge?
That wouldn't work on today's Earth, where there are too many important surface locations relevant to a putative orbital business park, all on their own time zones. Would Quark synchronize just so that communications with Kai Winn would remain uncomplicated? Or would he ignore Winn at the capital and synch with his major synthehol deliverer at the city of Tamulna instead? For all we know, he syncs with the Ferengi capital, or with the Cardassian one, while the Klingon Chef would keep Qo'noS First City time.
Agreed that the dimming of lights makes no sense, but Starfleet appears to do it nevertheless, as seen in "Data's Day": when Riker takes over from Data, he turns up the lights with the command "Begin day watch!". (Or was that something specific to Data-led night shifts? Perhaps the android turns down the lights because he doesn't need them? No, he doesn't have enhanced night vision as far as we can tell - but he could just have decided that the only thing he needs to see is the console readouts, and those are best viewed when ambient light is down.)
IIRC, we see dimmed lights again in "Thine Own Self", but I'm not sure about that.
Timo Saloniemi
Given the religious nature of the Bajorans, maybe the day/night cycle is determined by the Bajoran Temple on the promenade.
Much like how here, in the UK, 24 hour supermarkets can only open for 6 hours on a sunday, ('cos sunday's is church day), and close entirely on Christmas Day or Easter sunday.
We don't know that the businesses on the promenade close every night, just some nights. Could be cos thats the bajoran day of worship.
Much like how here, in the UK, 24 hour supermarkets can only open for 6 hours on a sunday, ('cos sunday's is church day), and close entirely on Christmas Day or Easter sunday.
We don't know that the businesses on the promenade close every night, just some nights. Could be cos thats the bajoran day of worship.
That's not strictly true, that rule about Christmas/Easter trading only applies to stores above ~3000 square feet. Stores under that can open.
Both you and The Baron make a fair point in that we don't know much about how the station keeps time or how often/how long the Promenade is closed. However, I think it has been established (hasn't it?) that DS9 uses the Bajoran 26-hour day, and presumably Bajor has some kind of global time standard (much like Greenwich Time on Earth), so I think it is fair to say that the station follows that standard.
Given that the station uses a 26-hour day, that day would then be divided into the different shift rotations (I forget how many there are--didn't Kira discuss this with Sisko once?). The primary shift would correspond to "business hours" on the station--the senior officers are all on duty, Quark's is open, and the Promenade is busy. Whether this corresponds to business hours in the Bajoran capital is debatable--the station may be a few hours ahead or a few behind--but it does correspond with the global time standards on Bajor.
Take a look at the episode "Necessary Evil." Odo makes a daily security log while shutting down the Promenade and turning off the lights. The fact that he's making a daily log and doesn't mention anything unusual suggests that this is a normal occurrence--he shuts down the Promenade at the end of every day. Now, why he does this--for security reasons or whatever--well, that goes back to my question in the OP.
As for dimming the lights on the Enterprise bridge--it sounds like something that I guess made sense to the writers at the time but when you think about it it doesn't make sense at all.
I am torn between thinking that Quark should have the bar open at all times because he could be losing profits, and no self-respecting Ferengi would allow that. However, if the bar was open 26 hours a day how would he conduct his "shaddier" and probably more profitable business activities behind closed doors?
^ In the holosuites?
He doesn't seem to have an office, now that I think about it. He does everything, including inventory and payroll, right on the bar. Very odd business model.
He doesn't seem to have an office, now that I think about it. He does everything, including inventory and payroll, right on the bar. Very odd business model.
Not terribly odd for a bar, actually. You work with the space you have.
I might also suggest that if the bar was open 26-hours a day, then Quark wouldn't be able to monitor it as much as he does. While he's sleeping, the other Ferengi could end up stealing his money!
Remember the busy time for the Promenade (and Quarks) would be the evening - when 'alpha' gets off work, people go to dinner, go out for drinks. Quarks could be closed from 4am to ...... noon... not a lot of bars are open for breakfast.
Basically he'd want to be open when people got off work and when ships were allowed to make port calls. DS9 would schedule docking and port calls in such a way they happened when they had the most staff (security, starfleet, and/or engineering/refueling people) are available. You don't have to "clear" everyone for docking at all hours. "Negative, hold orbit until 0 900 hours".
This is all so you don't have to have a bunch of staff capacity for something that only one main shift could do. Theoretically, yes, ships can come in at all hours. But that doesn't mean it would make sense to accommodate them at all hours. If you get in 50 ships a day, it might be better to have that over 12 hours instead of over 26 hours with a bunch of wasted downtime inbetween. Sure, exceptions and advanced clearance would happen, but I'm sure DS9 would be scheduling these departures and arrivals. The ships have a day-night, the planet does (it's capital has a day/night and a business day), and it makes sense that the station does, too.
Quark would be closed during whatever period had the fewest ships coming in and during whatever period had the most people sleeping.
Basically he'd want to be open when people got off work and when ships were allowed to make port calls. DS9 would schedule docking and port calls in such a way they happened when they had the most staff (security, starfleet, and/or engineering/refueling people) are available. You don't have to "clear" everyone for docking at all hours. "Negative, hold orbit until 0 900 hours".
This is all so you don't have to have a bunch of staff capacity for something that only one main shift could do. Theoretically, yes, ships can come in at all hours. But that doesn't mean it would make sense to accommodate them at all hours. If you get in 50 ships a day, it might be better to have that over 12 hours instead of over 26 hours with a bunch of wasted downtime inbetween. Sure, exceptions and advanced clearance would happen, but I'm sure DS9 would be scheduling these departures and arrivals. The ships have a day-night, the planet does (it's capital has a day/night and a business day), and it makes sense that the station does, too.
Quark would be closed during whatever period had the fewest ships coming in and during whatever period had the most people sleeping.
I agree with most of that, but, he does want to be available for Breakfast for the Day crew before work and for the Graveyard crew as they get off. Rom ate breakfast at the Bar and the doors looked wide open for business (Though, of course, cleaning and set up was being done).
Quark probably sets his business hours by Morn's clock, if Morn's awake he's at Quarks spending against his tab.
I like to think of the station like an airport. There are some flights that depart at night, or arrive after midnight, right? While the airport does close some shops, others remain open. But bars/restaurants all close up, because the people working them have to go home eventually.
Still, I could see for something like a space station that everything would remain open all the time, staffed by different shifts of employees. But even still, there might be some designated shutdown times. Like on Sunday. Whatever that means, right?
We do make some assumptions about the lives of other species. What if you come from a world where there are only 20 hours in a day, or as much as 28 hours? You operate your ship with your home world reference time. Then you arrive at DS9. Whoa. Now you have to figure out the relative time, and how much of your awake time overlaps with the station "office hours". You have an appointment to see Commander Sisko, but have to wait a good 6 hours because he's still asleep, even though by then you'd be ready to get some sleep as well. Of course, none of this is touched on in Star Trek, because it would make things too complicated.
Incidentally, I'm wondering about something. A 26 hour day... how did the human staff deal with this? Think of how difficult it is for people to deal with jet lag. But imagine progressive jet lag? Your whole life you get used to a 24 hour day, and now it's 26 hours? If time "passes" at the same rate for Earth and Bajor, then your ability to communicate via subspace means that when contacting people on Earth, you have to constantly be aware of what time it is THERE... and that the relative difference from Bajor is constantly changing. It also means that a year will go by faster on Earth than it does on Bajor. When do you celebrate your birthday? Do you now get to celebrate it twice, once on the Bajoran calendar and once on the Earth calendar? What a mess!
Still, I could see for something like a space station that everything would remain open all the time, staffed by different shifts of employees. But even still, there might be some designated shutdown times. Like on Sunday. Whatever that means, right?
We do make some assumptions about the lives of other species. What if you come from a world where there are only 20 hours in a day, or as much as 28 hours? You operate your ship with your home world reference time. Then you arrive at DS9. Whoa. Now you have to figure out the relative time, and how much of your awake time overlaps with the station "office hours". You have an appointment to see Commander Sisko, but have to wait a good 6 hours because he's still asleep, even though by then you'd be ready to get some sleep as well. Of course, none of this is touched on in Star Trek, because it would make things too complicated.
Incidentally, I'm wondering about something. A 26 hour day... how did the human staff deal with this? Think of how difficult it is for people to deal with jet lag. But imagine progressive jet lag? Your whole life you get used to a 24 hour day, and now it's 26 hours? If time "passes" at the same rate for Earth and Bajor, then your ability to communicate via subspace means that when contacting people on Earth, you have to constantly be aware of what time it is THERE... and that the relative difference from Bajor is constantly changing. It also means that a year will go by faster on Earth than it does on Bajor. When do you celebrate your birthday? Do you now get to celebrate it twice, once on the Bajoran calendar and once on the Earth calendar? What a mess!
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^But space stations are just like airports, in this way. People coming from different parts of countries or the world are all on different times. When you arrive in the middle of the night and it's only 6 PM for you, well, basically you're probably going to be hungry.
Because in airports, it isn't economical to run them 100% staffing 24 hours a day. Because most of the traveling WOULDN'T be happening those other 12 hours of the day. There are 'read eyes' but those are getting fewer and fewer because it makes more sense to pack more things into tighter planes with tighter departure and arrival turnaround. Because they have to not just pay the concession guy, they have to pay for the refueling people, the air controller people, the luggage handlers. If there's a way to schedule that during the DAY, you bet they aren't going to be adding a shift to handle just a few more flights.
Just like in DS9. They would need 300 - theoretically - to do the work 100 people could do if they were to keep that staffing level up all the time over 3 shifts. That's not a handwaving "staffed by different shifts" - you've just added 200 more people, who will need quarters space, extra sickbay supplies, extra administrative needs. You've also added extra needs for things like schools. You've also taken away from the station's capacity to house passengers and freight since you're using that space for staff and their supplies. Basically by running the station 100% all the time, you've made it less useful.
So yes, people ARE going to wait to dock and they ARE going to wait to see Sisko. You don't just show up somewhere whenever you want, you schedule. In order to not arrive at a dumb time, you just match your speed to arrive at an agreeable hour. These trips are weeks, months long. It makes sense to back it down a notch and synch up your local time with the station's local time.
DS9 and Bajor have limited resources so they're going to make everyone play by their rules. You don't staff for 3 full 100% shifts because it would be too awkward to close most functions for 1 shift or to schedule things to your advantage.
And that's why they use Stardates. I'm sure they (humans from Earth, or all Humans) all have a curious look at what calendar day it is on Earth, but it's not something they care about day to day.
Because in airports, it isn't economical to run them 100% staffing 24 hours a day. Because most of the traveling WOULDN'T be happening those other 12 hours of the day. There are 'read eyes' but those are getting fewer and fewer because it makes more sense to pack more things into tighter planes with tighter departure and arrival turnaround. Because they have to not just pay the concession guy, they have to pay for the refueling people, the air controller people, the luggage handlers. If there's a way to schedule that during the DAY, you bet they aren't going to be adding a shift to handle just a few more flights.
Just like in DS9. They would need 300 - theoretically - to do the work 100 people could do if they were to keep that staffing level up all the time over 3 shifts. That's not a handwaving "staffed by different shifts" - you've just added 200 more people, who will need quarters space, extra sickbay supplies, extra administrative needs. You've also added extra needs for things like schools. You've also taken away from the station's capacity to house passengers and freight since you're using that space for staff and their supplies. Basically by running the station 100% all the time, you've made it less useful.
So yes, people ARE going to wait to dock and they ARE going to wait to see Sisko. You don't just show up somewhere whenever you want, you schedule. In order to not arrive at a dumb time, you just match your speed to arrive at an agreeable hour. These trips are weeks, months long. It makes sense to back it down a notch and synch up your local time with the station's local time.
DS9 and Bajor have limited resources so they're going to make everyone play by their rules. You don't staff for 3 full 100% shifts because it would be too awkward to close most functions for 1 shift or to schedule things to your advantage.
And that's why they use Stardates. I'm sure they (humans from Earth, or all Humans) all have a curious look at what calendar day it is on Earth, but it's not something they care about day to day.
Actually that is a good idea. Odo doesn't particularly trust anyone else (and the Ferengi surely don't - trust is a foreign concept to them), and so if Odo can't oversee things, then by his logic, they shouldn't be running.
But Odo's status as a figure of power would be a fairly recent, post-Occupation thing.
Then again, the use of the Promenade for commerce other than Quark's would probably be equally recent. Perhaps Cardassians didn't have the "station night" concept yet?
Apparently, it's very easy to adjust to longer sleep cycles. Although the thing about every human being having an inborn 25 hour cycle seems to be an urban myth or a faulty initial research result; the built-in day that emerges if diurnal cues are removed is more or less the length of the natural day. It's just that the body doesn't give a damn about the natural day if a better alternative presents itself in the form of lighting cues and such.
Timo Saloniemi
Then again, the use of the Promenade for commerce other than Quark's would probably be equally recent. Perhaps Cardassians didn't have the "station night" concept yet?
Apparently, it's very easy to adjust to longer sleep cycles. Although the thing about every human being having an inborn 25 hour cycle seems to be an urban myth or a faulty initial research result; the built-in day that emerges if diurnal cues are removed is more or less the length of the natural day. It's just that the body doesn't give a damn about the natural day if a better alternative presents itself in the form of lighting cues and such.
Timo Saloniemi
No, actually, Odo was chief of security on DS9 even *during* the Occupation. Not for all of it, but some.
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