Should Vulcans be greener?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Gojira, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    What are you talking about? What we want is for Vulcan's star to have low UV emissions (relative to Sol) to explain why its desert-dwellers don't need a lot of melanin.


    It was not an "assumption," it was an informed conclusion based on the evidence I just provided you. Since I've already shown my work, already demonstrated the reasons why I drew that conclusion, you have no grounds for calling it an "assumption."


    Which should tell anyone with a decent high school education in astronomy that it's probably weaker in ultraviolet than the Sun. Although maybe I'm giving modern American high schools too much credit.

    Neither of which has anything to do with its UV output specifically. Again, 90% of stars are cooler and redder than Sol. But of course a planet can be closer to its star than Earth is; a planet around a red star would have to be closer to have liquid-water temperatures. So as seen from such a planet, the sun would be larger in the sky than Sol is and could be just as bright. And of course hotness is a function of how close a planet is to its star -- and how much infrared radiation the atmosphere traps with the greenhouse effect. UV output is a separate question.
     
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  2. thewanderingjack

    thewanderingjack Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Whoa... sorry I haven't slept in... some days, my head was stuck somewhere.

    So, given the low UV etc... (not your informed conclusions though, let's keep those separate, for me... I want to call Vulcan's star... Christopher, after my personal hero), you are totally right, and that becomes the best explanation for why Vulcan's are light skinned despite their dessert world... but then we go back to the second eyelid issue, and are back to they should be more green, as well as then what's up with black Vulcans (here I say it's their own response to the red light for whatever reason and I'm happy with that bit)
     
  3. MAGolding

    MAGolding Commander Red Shirt

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    I think that I wrote somewhere that there are about 5 known systems between 16.0 and 17.0 light years from Earth and showed that 40 Eridani was the most likely one.

    thewanderingjack wrote:

    I think that the Vulcan inner eyelid evolved to protect against sudden intense light. Vulcans try to never look directly at their sun, just as humans try never to look directly at our sun. There might be sudden reflections of Vulcan's sun in pools of water, off snow covered mountains, etc. and the inner eyelid shuts in response to such sudden accidental flashes of intense sunlight. And apparently it happens very rarely, since Spock didn't remember incidents of temporary blindness caused by the inner eyelid happening to him a lot. Or maybe he did remember and let his friends anguish about his blindness as punishment for never having looked up the most basic facts of Vulcan physiology.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  4. ChasFink

    ChasFink Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Actually, during that operation Spock's blood did become darker and greener (and presumably more like a full Vulcanian's) after the human elements were removed. It's visible in the transparent tubes attached to that long armlike device hanging over Spock's bed, and was specifically mentioned in the script.
    A long time ago I read an article in a fanzine that attempted to work out the science of copper-based Vulcan physiology. It speculated that instead of a darkening pigment, Vulcans were protected from the sun by a reflective opaque substance - so a Vulcan who spent a long time in the sun would get LIGHTER and yellower. Of course, this was B.T. (before Tuvok).
     
  5. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

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    I've always wondered if Balok's look was supposed to be the original look of the full Vulcan! I mean it hardly looked anything like Mark Lenard or any other Vulcans we saw later on. Then again it did share the mouth of T'Pau! :vulcan:
    JB
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Not just their lips and gums... ;)
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Um, you're forgetting the birth scene from TFF... :wtf:
     
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Spock only said that "in some manner he was reminiscent of my father." That's hardly the same thing as saying "He looks exactly like a member of my species." If anything, he's more likely to be speaking of Balok's manner and personality than his physical appearance. Naturally they didn't yet know what Spock's father's species would be like when they wrote that episode -- they didn't even have a name for the "Vulcanians" until the next episode, "Mudd's Women" -- so the line was meant to be vague and open to interpretation. They were making this stuff up as they went, and leaving things open for later screenwriters to fill in as they wished.
     
  9. Gary7

    Gary7 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Greener? No. Why? Actually, it seems subtle but there's kind of a greenish yellow hue to Spock and T'Pol. I think it's a sufficient differentiation from other skin tones of the crew.

    Any greener and they'd look more like Orions.... :wtf:
     
  10. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed! But I was talking with someone a while back and he too theorized that at that time pure Vulcans may have looked similar to Balok's species if they existed. But yes, I think Spock was referring primarily to Balok's aggressive manner!
    JB
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^As I said earlier in this thread, I do think the original intent was that pure "Vulcanians" would look less human, since Harry Mudd recognized Spock as a hybrid on sight. But that doesn't mean they would've looked specifically like Balok. The words "in some manner" and "reminiscent" make it clear that Spock was not describing a close or obvious resemblance. And if the Scary Balok Puppet had looked like a well-known Earth-allied species (the Federation hadn't been thought up yet), surely the other characters would've noticed the similarity and reacted to it, much as they later did with the Romulans in "Balance of Terror."
     
  12. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    What's amused me the last couple of years is the more than a little resemblance of the Balok puppet to the actor that voiced it, one Ted Cassidy.

    As for Vulcan appearance and evolution, if the speculation Spock mentioned in Return to Tomorrow about Vulcans emigrating to Vulcan from somewhere else is in any way accurate, they may have come from a low UV world, and chose Vulcan as their new home because of the similarities. This of course means that if Arret is that world, it was a low UV world before the natives destroyed it.
     
  13. johnnybear

    johnnybear Commodore Commodore

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    All Spock said was that Sargon's theory on his race seeding the galaxy would explain his people's pre-history where as Anne Mulhall says that life on earth developed independently!
    JB
     
  14. Spock's Barber

    Spock's Barber Commodore Commodore

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    It must be Hell being confined to a little sphere. No wonder Henok was so cranky.
     
  15. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    They have copper in their blood cells, but presumably myoglobin in their muscles for oxygen transfer from those, and protein based tisses that would leave redder muscles as well as the yellowishness from fat deposits, so eh, human looking skin seems fine.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe they had a 'cyberspace' that they could access, like how the Cylons on nuBSG could 'project'.
     
  17. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder how a copper-based analog to myoglobin might work.

    Kor
     
  18. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    At least those areas that appear pinkish on humans should be greenish on Vulcans.
    Admiral Sitak actually has such a look.
    [​IMG]

    Also, Romulans often had colouring that would be more what I'd expect from green-blooded humanoids.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Also, is it just me or did they just drop the Vulcan colouring in Kelvin films? They looked pretty pinkish to me in those.
     
  19. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure, but they do seem to have one. Their respiration and food intake is the same as humans.
     
  20. JRTStarlight

    JRTStarlight Captain Captain

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    If anything, it's the humans who admire the Vulcans so much and would rather we were more like them that are greener. With envy.

    But I'm pretty sure most Vulcans are quite environmentally aware and excellent stewards of their planet. They can't get much greener than that.