Having read this debate back and forth endlessly, I feel compelled to put in my own two cents for whatever it’s worth.
I went back to the scene with L’Rell and transcribed her exact words [next paragraph]. There seems no doubt whatsoever that Tyler was a real person, and this Tyler that we now see is also a real person, although perhaps not the original, more like a cloned twin. Of course what L’Rell says could be complete lies, but they’re all we have, and I think we are meant to accept them as fact.
“The one you call Tyler was captured in battle at the binary stars. We harvested his DNA, reconstructed his consciousness and rebuilt his memory. We modified Voq into a shell that appears human. We grafted his psyche into Tyler’s and in so doing Voq has given his body and soul for our ideology. If he suffers for that choice, so be it.”
I had always assumed that the real Tyler’s body was dead, except for part or all of his brain that went into Voq’s modified body. However, if all that was harvested was his DNA, and his memories of being tortured are false ones reflecting Voq’s real torture, then the original Tyler may still be living somewhere as a prisoner of the Klingons. They might have had reason to keep him alive as a backup of sorts if needed.
The human skin, organs, face etc. that surround Voq’s diminished bones may have simply been grown from Tyler’s DNA, not ripped from his living body. How this could have been done in the space of a couple of weeks defies logic, but then so does the whole concept. However, we’ve seen such things that defy logic many times in Trek before. Sometimes we have to make a conscious decision to accept things as described in order to enjoy the show. I think this is one of those times.
By saying that they “grafted his [Voq’s] psyche into Tyler’s,” there’s the suggestion to me that the physical brain that Voq/Tyler shared was human and belonged to Tyler. Voq was probably the “overlying” consciousness that Dr. Culbert was picking up on, while Tyler’s was the main one. L’Rell probably assumed that Voq’s superior Klingon psyche would be strong enough to overwhelm Tyler permanently once she woke him up. Instead, it became a battle for supremacy that Tyler was unaware was even going on until it was too late.
Circling back to the original question, if we accept, as we always have in the past, that someone whose mind was temporarily overwhelmed or replaced by spores, another entity, the Borg, whatever, is not responsible for what was done during that time, I think we owe the same forgiveness to Tyler,
I actually would see no bar, given Star Trek’s past history, in returning Ash to duty if it could be proven without doubt that all Voq’s active consciousness were driven out. We’ve seen basically the same thing happen before. In the case of Picard, he was actually returned to captaincy when it was feared for awhile that he still might have had some susceptibility to the Borg.
In this case, given that the original Tyler might still be alive, the fact that the twin Tyler may be uniquely qualified to be a bridge to the Klingons, and that the twin Tyler might have some sort of wish to sacrifice himself to prove his loyalty to Burnham, I can see several possible ways this could play out, including his death.
I can even see the twin Tyler character as ultimately becoming the “torn between two worlds” character that we always seem to have in Trek: Spock, Data, T’Pol, Seven, Odo? We’ve thought that was meant to be Burnham, but in fact Tyler seems a better candidate: human DNA over a Klingon skeleton; a fully human mind, Ash Tyler, but perhaps newly born, a clone, [maybe that’s why he sometimes seems to be weak]; still having all Voq’s memories and thus insight and sympathy for the Klingons.
I’m not really understanding the lack of sympathy for Tyler given that he was a Starfleet officer who was used against his will, as we’ve seen (and forgiven) so very many times before. I was glad to see Tilly support him though I agree with many others that it would have been more poignant if she were the only one to do so for now.
I went back to the scene with L’Rell and transcribed her exact words [next paragraph]. There seems no doubt whatsoever that Tyler was a real person, and this Tyler that we now see is also a real person, although perhaps not the original, more like a cloned twin. Of course what L’Rell says could be complete lies, but they’re all we have, and I think we are meant to accept them as fact.
“The one you call Tyler was captured in battle at the binary stars. We harvested his DNA, reconstructed his consciousness and rebuilt his memory. We modified Voq into a shell that appears human. We grafted his psyche into Tyler’s and in so doing Voq has given his body and soul for our ideology. If he suffers for that choice, so be it.”
I had always assumed that the real Tyler’s body was dead, except for part or all of his brain that went into Voq’s modified body. However, if all that was harvested was his DNA, and his memories of being tortured are false ones reflecting Voq’s real torture, then the original Tyler may still be living somewhere as a prisoner of the Klingons. They might have had reason to keep him alive as a backup of sorts if needed.
The human skin, organs, face etc. that surround Voq’s diminished bones may have simply been grown from Tyler’s DNA, not ripped from his living body. How this could have been done in the space of a couple of weeks defies logic, but then so does the whole concept. However, we’ve seen such things that defy logic many times in Trek before. Sometimes we have to make a conscious decision to accept things as described in order to enjoy the show. I think this is one of those times.
By saying that they “grafted his [Voq’s] psyche into Tyler’s,” there’s the suggestion to me that the physical brain that Voq/Tyler shared was human and belonged to Tyler. Voq was probably the “overlying” consciousness that Dr. Culbert was picking up on, while Tyler’s was the main one. L’Rell probably assumed that Voq’s superior Klingon psyche would be strong enough to overwhelm Tyler permanently once she woke him up. Instead, it became a battle for supremacy that Tyler was unaware was even going on until it was too late.
Circling back to the original question, if we accept, as we always have in the past, that someone whose mind was temporarily overwhelmed or replaced by spores, another entity, the Borg, whatever, is not responsible for what was done during that time, I think we owe the same forgiveness to Tyler,
I actually would see no bar, given Star Trek’s past history, in returning Ash to duty if it could be proven without doubt that all Voq’s active consciousness were driven out. We’ve seen basically the same thing happen before. In the case of Picard, he was actually returned to captaincy when it was feared for awhile that he still might have had some susceptibility to the Borg.
In this case, given that the original Tyler might still be alive, the fact that the twin Tyler may be uniquely qualified to be a bridge to the Klingons, and that the twin Tyler might have some sort of wish to sacrifice himself to prove his loyalty to Burnham, I can see several possible ways this could play out, including his death.
I can even see the twin Tyler character as ultimately becoming the “torn between two worlds” character that we always seem to have in Trek: Spock, Data, T’Pol, Seven, Odo? We’ve thought that was meant to be Burnham, but in fact Tyler seems a better candidate: human DNA over a Klingon skeleton; a fully human mind, Ash Tyler, but perhaps newly born, a clone, [maybe that’s why he sometimes seems to be weak]; still having all Voq’s memories and thus insight and sympathy for the Klingons.
I’m not really understanding the lack of sympathy for Tyler given that he was a Starfleet officer who was used against his will, as we’ve seen (and forgiven) so very many times before. I was glad to see Tilly support him though I agree with many others that it would have been more poignant if she were the only one to do so for now.
