Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

[Commishsleer]

Actually does anyone (who has watched all the series thoroughly) know how many female Starfleet Captains we actually saw on screen in the series and the movies.
There was one in STIV, maybe 1 in ENT. I only remember 1 in TNG but think that there must have been more.

At least three: Rachel Garrett, Tryla Scott and Silva LaForge. And if you're counting just captains by rank as opposed to starship captains, there is also Phillipa Louvois. TNG also had a number of female admirals who had to have been captains previously.

1 in VOY but we probably saw less than 5 Starfleet ships. Does anyone know how many there were in DS9?

Not sure of the total, but besides Dax (not by rank, but she did captain the Defiant on a few missions) there was also Lisa Cusak and Erika Benteen. They namedropped Captain Shelby once, too, but we don't know for sure if it was the same Shelby from BOBW.

It would be interesting to see the ratio between male and female captains in the modern shows, since I don't think we really saw *that* many captains overall. That would take someone with a better memory than me, though...

Ooops I saw all those TNG episodes, How could I forget LaForge's mum? And Rachel Garret Captain of the ENT-C? Tryla Scott was the only one I remembered without your reminding.

I suppose we really only ever saw other Federation Captains when they did something wrong.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Another was Captain Chantal Zaheva.

 

[Commishsleer]

Looks like all the TNG female Captains died on duty. (Or almost)

 

[Warped9]

Beyond Number One I remember one in TVH and three in TNG (probably more though).

 

[Warped9]

In Season 2 or 3 or TOS it would have been cool if once or twice Kirk, upon exiting the bridge, had simply said, "Lt. Uhura, you have the con."

By all rights that would have made more sense then handing the con to Chekov, an Ensign. It would have made zero difference dramatically, but it would have been huge in terms of universe building. It doesn't really matter if Uhura is Support Services (red) because we saw other officers (like DeSalle) who were also Support Services manning the con. In certain situations it might make more sense for Sulu to have the con, possibly because of background experience in combat and he's on the command path (presumably). But at other times when Sulu wasn't present Uhura should have been given the nod rather than Chekov. This I think is an example of unconcious chauvanism on the part of the writers who probably didn't give it a second's thought, but within context of an officer's rank and experience in Starfleet it's a fail. Uhura should have been given the con.

Yeah, we saw her take command in TAS' "The Lorelei Signal," but it would have carried more weight (and would have been more widely remembered) if they had done it in TOS.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

three in TNG (probably more though).

Yeah, four were mentioned in the three or four posts above yours.

At least three: Rachel Garrett, Tryla Scott and Silva LaForge.

Another was Captain Chantal Zaheva.

 

[Avro Arrow]

Looks like all the TNG female Captains died on duty. (Or almost)

Yes, but I think this is probably true of most of the male captains, too. Like I said, we didn't see other captains all that often, and when we did, it was likely because they were going to die within the episode.

Donald Varley -> dead
Walker Keel -> dead
Paul Rice -> dead

Which male captains survived the end of the episode? DeSoto, Rixx, Maxwell, Jellico, Bateson... hmm, now that I've written it out, it appears I am wrong: male captains do have a much higher survival rate in the show.

And, of course, there may be other captains I am forgetting. And the bigger question: how long can we discuss TNG in here without getting in trouble?

In Season 2 or 3 or TOS it would have been cool if once or twice Kirk, upon exiting the bridge, had simply said, "Lt. Uhura, you have the con."

Yes. This should have happened. It is especially egregious in Catspaw when they brought in DeSalle as a guest star instead of just giving the conn to Uhura. (Yay, a TOS comment! )

 

[Robbiesan]

In 1967, it was fairly common for a husband to insist to drive instead of his wife due to sexism. I can only think of one time that Uhura piloted the helm and it was such a big deal that later Starlog, one of the first Star Trek and science fiction magazines, actually featured this. There was also a slender magazine that folded out into a poster, and these would adorn the walls of young people who enjoyed the show. As I recall because of Uhura at the helm, that was made into a poster too.

And people are insisting that there should have been MORE. You just don't get that time period. There were all kinds of routine things that happened that were sexist like insisting women dress one way and men another way in factories. Women were not allowed to be operators of machinery because it was assumed they couldn't handle it. All of that is pretty tough to comprehend today.

Heck, if a women even raised her voice in objection to something that other men were saying, she was considered "bitchy and unreasonable".

 

[Warped9]

Well women actually did operate machinery in factories and the like and they'd been doing it since WWI. I raise the point about giving Uhura the con because of Number One being First Officer in "The Cage." So it should have been a minor thing for Kirk to have said once or twice that Uhura take the con. The door had already been opened, and additionally we had already seen a black male as a Commodore in "Court Martial." In 2nd season we also got to see Lt. Cmdr. Anne Mulhall in "Return To Tomorrow."

So we have already had a woman as second-in-command. We've had a black male of flag rank and a woman of higher rank than Lieutenant. So to not see Uhura given the con on one or two occasions (in TOS) is a miss in my book.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She's at the navigation station. Sulu's at helm. So she's in charge of the map.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Besides in "Balance of Terror" to relieve Stiles, Uhura was also reading the map at the beginning of "The Man Trap", and in a very similar scene in "The Naked Time" that was probably shot at the same time (which was caught by Harvey recently).

 

[Nerys Myk]

We have seen women at helm

and navigation

 

[Robbiesan]

Here's the "Star Trek Giant Poster Book" issue 12 that featured Uhura. I can't emphasize enough how unusual this was for women at the time. I doubt there were any US female pilots in military aviation in such a role in 1967. It was rather a big deal when the Israelis began using women in combat and I think that they also had female pilots by around 1972.

I'd bet there were Soviet female pilots much sooner based upon female inclusion in the military in a prominent role during WW2.
EDIT: Yep. Here's Marina Raskova during the war.

And highly decorated....

While Communism has committed some of the worst massacres in history, it's a shame that people don't realize the tremendous contributions of Soviet women in combat during WW2.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Raskova

 

[Robbiesan]

Well women actually did operate machinery in factories and the like and they'd been doing it since WWI. I raise the point about giving Uhura the con because of Number One being First Officer in "The Cage." So it should have been a minor thing for Kirk to have said once or twice that Uhura take the con. The door had already been opened, and additionally we had already seen a black male as a Commodore in "Court Martial." In 2nd season we also got to see Lt. Cmdr. Anne Mulhall in "Return To Tomorrow."

So we have already had a woman as second-in-command. We've had a black male of flag rank and a woman of higher rank than Lieutenant. So to not see Uhura given the con on one or two occasions (in TOS) is a miss in my book.

Agreed with provisions about US history.
Post-Pearl Harbor, when the US entered WW2, women were sorely needed for operating heavy machinery i.e. the Rosie the Riveter era. This actually accelerated the feminist movement in the USA.

On the other hand post-WW2, there was a big propaganda campaign to be patriotic and for women to leave those jobs so men could be hired who had served as soldiers. As a result a lot of women stopped being operators.

In my region there were very few female operators in factories until the later seventies. It was highly discouraged.

So you actually had women being asked to be patriotic and serve their country by doing what had been male roles, but then to be patriotic and leave those roles so men could do them.

Then to have Uhura, a black female navigating was even more unusual as black women were often still shown in subservient roles on television. There are exceptions on television, some that we've discussed, but many professional black women were in occupations as nurses and teachers far more than any other profession.

 

[J.T.B.]

Yes. This should have happened. It is especially egregious in Catspaw when they brought in DeSalle as a guest star instead of just giving the conn to Uhura. (Yay, a TOS comment! )

I agree completely about wishing Uhura had been given the conn. But I always liked the DeSalle situation; it made the ship seem more real, like there were other senior officers that we didn't see because their normal duties were elsewhere, as you would expect in a complex vessel with 400+ people aboard.

 

[BillJ]

Yes. This should have happened. It is especially egregious in Catspaw when they brought in DeSalle as a guest star instead of just giving the conn to Uhura. (Yay, a TOS comment! )

I agree completely about wishing Uhura had been given the conn. But I always liked the DeSalle situation; it made the ship seem more real, like there were other senior officers that we didn't see because their normal duties were elsewhere, as you would expect in a complex vessel with 400+ people aboard.

Do we ever see any non-bridge crew in command in any of the spin-offs (outside a guest captain/admiral)? I'm really struggling to remember a time?

 

[T'Girl]

TNG also had a number of female admirals who had to have been captains previously.

Modern day it is pretty common to reach the rank of admiral without being the captain of a ship during your career.

I can only think of one time that Uhura piloted the helm ...

Maybe you're thinking of Janice Rand, she was at the helm in one episode.

Do we ever see any non-bridge crew in command in any of the spin-offs (outside a guest captain/admiral)? I'm really struggling to remember a time?

Deanna Troi was in command in Disastor, I don't think legally she should have been, not being a qualified bridge officer at the time. But Chief O'Brien obviously did not want Ensign Ro in command of the ship and so he employed a little "advice from the chief" (read bullshit) and convinced both officers that Troi was in command solely owing to her rank.

 

[Robbiesan]

Looking back, I believe Uhura was at the navigator's position three times. I have the unshakable memory of her at the conn at least once, but I guess that was only in the animated series. I feel certain she was at the piloting position at least once, but I can't find evidence of it anywhere.

It's rather shocking that someone in real life could make admiral and not have commanded a ship in any recent times. In history people took command of naval battles without prior experience in such things (both in ancient and late medieval history), and I guess that's what's happened in real life in the modern and postmodern period. When did that happen? Do you have a link?

 

[J.T.B.]

Do we ever see any non-bridge crew in command in any of the spin-offs (outside a guest captain/admiral)? I'm really struggling to remember a time?

I remember the TNG season one "The Arsenal of Freedom" where the chief engineer LT Logan came to the bridge to relieve LTJG La Forge and there was a big argument over who should be in charge, which was incredibly stupid.

Modern day it is pretty common to reach the rank of admiral without being the captain of a ship during your career.

In what navy? In the US Navy that would be very uncommon, except for staff corps (supply, medical, dental, nurse, chaplain, civil engineer, JAG) and restricted line (engineering duty, intelligence, information warfare, HR, public affairs etc) . About the only line officers who reach flag rank without having commanded a ship are aviation officers who commanded air squadrons and wings instead.

 

[T'Girl]

Yes, as you yourself point out, there are career paths that lead to the rank of admiral that don't involve being the captain of a ship at any point.

I would point out that there are enough of those career paths for them to be considered "common."

By law I believe the number of US Navy admirals is limited to something like 210 or 220.