Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

[Warped9]

While re-reading These Are The Voyages (revised version) I came accross an interesting note, part of a quotation from a bit of dialogue in the final shooting script for "Conscience Of The King." Apparently this scene was meant to be filmed, but was cut because of time constraints and being behind schedule.

The scene takes place when Kirk and Lenore Karidian are on the shuttlecraft observation deck. Janice Rand is supposed to walk onto the scene with a datapad requiring Kirk's signature. After Kirk dismisses her Lenore comments on Rand's apparent demeanor (veiled jealousy).

Part of Kirk's response is, "On this ship they (women) have the same duties and functions as the men. They compete equally and get no special privileges."

Now that bit of dialogue and the complete scene remains intact in James Blish's adaptation of the episode.

Seems to me GR was making a statement there, but sadly the scene had to be truncated when filming.

 

[T'Girl]

"On this ship they (women) have the same duties and functions as the men. They compete equally and get no special privileges."

It would be interesting to know Lenore's prior statement that lead to Kirk's response.

Kirk would seem to be telling (or trying to tell) Lenore something that she wasn't aware of, and that women doing the same things as men was something Lenore wasn't used to, at least in her world. Which would be odd, because the impression I received is that Lenore was the one who ran the theatrical company.

 

[Warped9]

"On this ship they (women) have the same duties and functions as the men. They compete equally and get no special privileges."

It would be interesting to know Lenore's prior statement that lead to Kirk's response.

Kirk would seem to be telling (or trying to tell) Lenore something that she wasn't aware of, and that women doing the same things as men was something Lenore wasn't used to, at least in her world. Which would be odd, because the impression I received is that Lenore was the one who ran the theatrical company.

Lebore notices Rand's veiled jelousy and remarks she thinks Janice doesn't like her. Kirk's response is dismissive and suggests she's imagining things and that Janice Rand is all business and efficient. At that Lenore remarks she thinks Kirk doesn't really know much about women (if he hasn't noticed Rand's demeanor). Lenore asks Kirk if his world (Starfleet) has made women just people instead of women. Kirk replies, "On this ship they have the same duties and functions as the men. They compete equally and get no special privileges." and adds, "But they're still women."

 

[Armored Saint]

I had no idea the letters "J" and "T" were limited to "Anglo-Saxon".

Not the letters, but the diminituve in a formal context, the initials and the initials as diminutive...it sounds pretty more as a dude called Jonathan Terrence than Juan Tomas.

Take a look of senior officers introduced in the first three movies:

Captain Decker, a white American.-
Captain Terrell, black, but American
Admiral Morrows, black, but American

What could possible lead you to think any of these characters are American?

Because a guy called Clark Terrell or Harry Morrow is more likely from New York than Port-au-Prince.

 

[Warped9]

I knew a guy named Clifford Fernandez and he was from India.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Take a look of senior officers introduced in the first three movies:

Captain Decker, a white American.-
Captain Terrell, black, but American
Admiral Morrows, black, but American

What could possible lead you to think any of these characters are American?

They spoke with American accents, the actors who portrayed them were American, and they had American sounding names. I admit, there's not a lot of evidence FOR them being American, but there's certainly NO evidence against it.

Uhura was from Africa, but the actress spoke with a Chicago accent.

Come again? I never thought that Uhura spoke with a Chicago accent.

Although it would have been rather amusing if she had.

"Da hailin' frequenciesss are open, sir."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I had no idea the letters "J" and "T" were limited to "Anglo-Saxon".

Not the letters, but the diminituve in a formal context, the initials and the initials as diminutive...it sounds pretty more as a dude called Jonathan Terrence than Juan Tomas.

Why not? Estaban speaks "Federation Standard". Any names starting with J and T can become the diminutive "J T". Even if it's J'onn T'pel.

Take a look of senior officers introduced in the first three movies:



Captain Decker, a white American.-
Captain Terrell, black, but American
Admiral Morrows, black, but American

What could possible lead you to think any of these characters are American?

Because a guy called Clark Terrell or Harry Morrow is more likely from New York than Port-au-Prince.

Meet Noel Clark from England

Madge Sinclair from Jamaica

 

[Robbiesan]

If you actually lived in the time period that Star Trek TOS aired, then I think you would find the show more progressive than practically anything else on television. It was rare to see a person of color at all, and when you did, they were often in subservient roles. That wasn't the case on Star Trek for the most part.

It's very difficult to be go back and ask what might have been. I think the show went about as far as they could. Some of those shows dealt with serious racism topics when that was verbotten on other shows. Much of it was about making a show that the sponsors would support too, and in spite of that you saw things like an interacial kiss.

I'm a product of an interracial marriage and it was unheard of then to see two people actually demonstrating any intimacy in that way. Heck, people stared at my family when we went out, much less them allowing it on television.

The Romulan female commander was a big deal. How few female officers did we have in the US military that held any high rank? Maybe a handful in nursing areas?

 

[Warped9]

If you actually lived in the time period that Star Trek TOS aired, then I think you would find the show more progressive than practically anything else on television. It was rare to see a person of color at all, and when you did, they were often in subservient roles. That wasn't the case on Star Trek for the most part.

It's very difficult to be go back and ask what might have been. I think the show went about as far as they could. Some of those shows dealt with serious racism topics when that was verbotten on other shows. Much of it was about making a show that the sponsors would support too, and in spite of that you saw things like an interacial kiss.

I'm a product of an interracial marriage and it was unheard of then to see two people actually demonstrating any intimacy in that way. Heck, people stared at my family when we went out, much less them allowing it on television.

The Romulan female commander was a big deal. How few female officers did we have in the US military that held any high rank? Maybe a handful in nursing areas?

Context can be everything. If you want a glimpse of what things could be like back then watch Mad Men.

 

[Nerys Myk]

If you actually lived in the time period that Star Trek TOS aired, then I think you would find the show more progressive than practically anything else on television. It was rare to see a person of color at all, and when you did, they were often in subservient roles. That wasn't the case on Star Trek for the most part.

It wasn't as rare as you might think during the time Star Trek was on the air. Hogan's Heroes, Mission Impossible and I Spy also had people of color in their casts and debuted before Star Trek. The roles were often more prominent than the ones people of color had in Star Trek. Star Trek was part of a trend encouraged by the networks, studios and advertisers rather than a lone a voice in the wilderness. Shows with multi ethnic casts like the Mod Squad, Room 222 and Julia debuted during Star Trek's run.

 

[Robbiesan]

It wasn't as rare as you might think during the time Star Trek was on the air. Hogan's Heroes, Mission Impossible and I Spy also had people of color in their casts and debuted before Star Trek. The roles were often more prominent than the ones people of color had in Star Trek. Star Trek was part of a trend encouraged by the networks, studios and advertisers rather than a lone a voice in the wilderness. Shows with multi ethnic casts like the Mod Squad, Room 222 and Julia debuted during Star Trek's run.

It's certainly true that those shows featured a minority in the cast. Hogan's Heroes had one Allied POW who was African-American. Julia was about an African-American single nurse trying to balance work and homelife. The latter was pretty criticized for not showing her in any ethinic situations, though I can recall enjoying it. I Spy was great.

Star Trek on the other hand featured an black admiral (I can't recall where he hailed from) and it's implied that Uhura is from Kenya since her name translates from Swahili. Both were very unusual. Even in 1966 or so, a lot of African characters were very marginalized and might appear ill educated.

Someone will always want Roddenberry to have done more. I don't think he could have done much more, and as a minority I was pretty happy with seeing some characters in command who were not simply white and male.

The fact that there were limited folks of color in upper management or women in upper management...or military command, makes me think that the protestations are rather silly since there was no basis for it being a norm in American society, and so again Roddenberry was exceeding expectations.

Heck, Sulu didn't mix up his Rs and Ls, which a big deal to me as every Asian character on television was forced to do this regardless if they were 4th generation Americans.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It wasn't as rare as you might think during the time Star Trek was on the air. Hogan's Heroes, Mission Impossible and I Spy also had people of color in their casts and debuted before Star Trek. The roles were often more prominent than the ones people of color had in Star Trek. Star Trek was part of a trend encouraged by the networks, studios and advertisers rather than a lone a voice in the wilderness. Shows with multi ethnic casts like the Mod Squad, Room 222 and Julia debuted during Star Trek's run.

It's certainly true that those shows featured a minority in the cast. Hogan's Heroes had one Allied POW who was African-American. Julia was about an African-American single nurse trying to balance work and homelife. The latter was pretty criticized for not showing her in any ethinic situations, though I can recall enjoying it. I Spy was great.

Hogan had two African American regulars, though not at the same time. And IIRC, had other black POWs as extras. Its been decades since I watched Julia but I recall race playing into some plots. The wiki article mentions one. In I Spy the lead was a person of color.

Star Trek on the other hand featured an black admiral (I can't recall where he hailed from) and it's implied that Uhura is from Kenya since her name translates from Swahili. Both were very unusual. Even in 1966 or so, a lot of African characters were very marginalized and might appear ill educated.

I assumed your were speaking of regulars, not guest stars. That character was a Commodore and they never said where he was from, though the actor was a Canadian. The actor, Percy Rodriguez, often play authority figures and professionals. Barney Collier from MI, was the teams tech experts. Kinch and Baker from Hogan's Heroes were communications experts. Even the character of Mike Makula on Daktari wasn't the typical loincloth wearing native.

Someone will always want Roddenberry to have done more. I don't think he could have done much more, and as a minority I was pretty happy with seeing some characters in command who were not simply white and male.

The fact that there were limited folks of color in upper management or women in upper management...or military command, makes me think that the protestations are rather silly since there was no basis for it being a norm in American society, and so again Roddenberry was exceeding expectations.

As I mentioned it was "Management" that wanted multi ethnic casting. Partially in hopes to appeal to non white consumers. IIRC, there is a memo reproduced in the Justman/Solow book encouraging Roddenberry to cast non whites in Trek as the first pilot was pretty white.

 

[Warped9]

That memo is also reprinted in These Are The Voyages.

 

[Maurice]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-b14SEqiP0[/yt]​

Sept. 29, 1968, ladies and gents.

 

[T'Girl]

They spoke with American accents, the actors who portrayed them were American, and they had American sounding names.

Ah, so Ambassador Sarek was an American.

Although as I understand it the origin of the name Sarek (outside of Star Trek) is Swedish.

 

[Armored Saint]

They spoke with American accents, the actors who portrayed them were American, and they had American sounding names. I admit, there's not a lot of evidence FOR them being American, but there's certainly NO evidence against it.

Considering Scotty's accent, I hardly figure the average Star Trek character as "maybe from a Commonwealth country". Anyway, if Decker, Morrow, Styles, Terrell and Cartwright are from an unindentified country, they still have anglo-saxon names...no matter how much large had been the British empire, it's not pretty diversified.

So T'Girl, despite the strong clues about it, I can't state these characters are Americans because there's not an explicit confirmation? And despite you don't have an explicit confirmation, you state that Starfleet didn't have female Captains before the Star Trek IV era?

As I said before, I don't dispute the fact that TOS was progressive, but I point out that the typical Starflfeet officer shown on screen was WASPish american officer despite some main characters weren't.

 

[T'Girl]

And despite you don't have an explicit confirmation, you state that Starfleet didn't have female Captains before the Star Trek IV era?

I have the evidence of what was seen and heard on the show, the utter lack of female Captains in the TOS era show.

Even in the movies there is only a single female Starfleet Captain, and that includes the TNG movies.

... despite the strong clues about it, I can't state these characters are Americans because there's not an explicit confirmation

But you can definitely state what their genders are.

As I said before, I don't dispute the fact that TOS was progressive, but I point out that the typical Starflfeet officer shown on screen was WASPish american officer despite some main characters weren't.

And while you CAN point to some TOS Starfleet Captains who were "WASPish" and supposedly of American nationality, you can not point to a single one that is female.

 

[Commishsleer]

Even in the movies there is only a single female Starfleet Captain, and that includes the TNG movies.

Actually does anyone (who has watched all the series thoroughly) know how many female Starfleet Captains we actually saw on screen in the series and the movies.
There was one in STIV, maybe 1 in ENT. I only remember 1 in TNG but think that there must have been more. 1 in VOY but we probably saw less than 5 Starfleet ships. Does anyone know how many there were in DS9?
Actually in STID a few of the women in the meetings and at the Academy must have been captains but its impossible to say how many.

 

[Robbiesan]

Probably due to the fact that there were zero women in NASA at the time, and it was considered extremely implausible that this would change in the near future.

On the other hand shows that depicted say the American cowboys seldom showed African-Americans cowboys when a good percentage actually were.

In the time period of TOS, you were lucky to see any diversity at all. Come on! It's over 40 years ago!

 

[Avro Arrow]

Actually does anyone (who has watched all the series thoroughly) know how many female Starfleet Captains we actually saw on screen in the series and the movies.
There was one in STIV, maybe 1 in ENT. I only remember 1 in TNG but think that there must have been more.

At least three: Rachel Garrett, Tryla Scott and Silva LaForge. And if you're counting just captains by rank as opposed to starship captains, there is also Phillipa Louvois. TNG also had a number of female admirals who had to have been captains previously.

1 in VOY but we probably saw less than 5 Starfleet ships. Does anyone know how many there were in DS9?

Not sure of the total, but besides Dax (not by rank, but she did captain the Defiant on a few missions) there was also Lisa Cusak and Erika Benteen. They namedropped Captain Shelby once, too, but we don't know for sure if it was the same Shelby from BOBW.

It would be interesting to see the ratio between male and female captains in the modern shows, since I don't think we really saw *that* many captains overall. That would take someone with a better memory than me, though...