Should they bring back Janeway?

[Darth Duck]

Ah, yes but this isn't the point. The point is not if you are racist, or sexist or even ageist, but that you give the appearance of being what that.

I don't want Janeway to come back from the dead. If that makes me look sexist to you, that's your problem that you can't separate criticisms of the character from criticisms of her sex.

If the same charges some of you use against Janeway were leveled against Sisko, you would be thought of as racist by people of color.

Only the ones that can't separate one aspect of the character (i.e. race/sex) from all the others. Some people think Avery Brooks is a terrible over-actor. I disagree, but I sure as hell wouldn't go around branding them racists. Some people think Sisko went to far over the line in "In The Pale Moonlight." I disagree, but they're not racist. I think Janeway was a character who had some inconsistent writing behind her, but I'm not sexist.

It doesn't matter if you are or not you would appear to be. By the same token with a lot of the things said about Janeway many of you (both male and female) give the appearance of being sexist, and it doesn't matter if you are or not, you appear to be.

Only to a select few who seem to think it necessary to view things through the lens of sex/race/whatever.

You can each protest individually, but when so many voices are male and the person you are talking about is female, you are going to appear sexist.

Bullshit. Complete and utter fucking bullshit. I am a big believer is freedom of speech, it's the only way we can function openly in society. If one cannot criticize a female or female character for fear of being labeled sexist, we're all screwed. Like another captain said "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

By the way none of the characters you are calling strong female characters, have the power or stature of Kathryn Janeway. There is no way killing the strongest female Trek character can appear to be anything other than a sexist act to an awful lot of female fans.

Well if it looks like a raven and walks like a raven it must be a duck.

You couple that with the fact that from TOS to Voyager there were around three times as many male characters as female and yet the death count is three females (Janeway Jadzia and Yar) and for the males it is Data and Sisko and Sisko is back in the books. Simply by the percentages you are appearing sexist by using women as the disposable characters.

Yeah, because the deaths of Jadzia and Yar were all about sexism and nothing to do with the actresses wanting out.

"The Women in the Refrigerator Syndrome" is a sexist trope, and for all the protests here, Janeway's death has all the earmarks of just that kind of "shock value" death.

If you don't want to be thought of as sexist, then don't give the appearance of being such.

Brit

I have no idea how any of us will appear not sexist to you unless we embrace the "Bring Janeway Back" belief. And "The Woman in the Refrigerator Syndrome" schtick is getting old.

 

[seigezunt]

Well, this thread just took a turn for the hysterical.

Freudian sexist.


Re above that some are "saying" they are enjoying the new story line, but "really" it's about the fact that they don't like Janeway. I think you can have both, liking a new story line, and the elimination of an inconsistently, sometimes poorly written character. Trek has had a number of strong female characters (I'm a big fan of Kira and Ro for two big examples), so crying sexism in this case just seems odd, in the neighborhood of crazy cat lady.

All said, because of this discussion, I picked up Mosaic after seeing it at a library sale for $1. If I survive trying to watch the series, I might read it.

 

[teya]

That's me--mindreader par excellence!

Actually, you don't seem to be very good at it. Your accuracy rating is way down.

I just notice that many who argue against bringing Janeway back, for whatever expressed reason, often admit along the way that they dislike the character and Voyager, as well. That makes me wonder if their stated reason--keeping the story line, exploring the reality of death, or not reusing the reset button, etc.--is just hiding the real reason, that that they dislike Janeway and are happy she's gone.

Well, I know I've always been suspect in the Voyager forum.

Because, of course, being a C/7er means I'm way anti-Voyager and way anti-Janeway.

I wonder if they would care so much if this hadn't been rolled up into the TNG/DS9 relaunch? Perhaps they can live with her revival if she is in deep space where her actions won't directly impact what is going on back home?

For me, no.

I haven't read any TNG novels until this year and I've only read a few DS9.

 

[teya]

Everyone who dislikes Janeway is sexist.

Everyone who dislikes Sisko is racist.

Everyone who dislikes Picard is agist.

Everyone who dislikes Wesley is right.

Generalizations = awesome.

Ah, yes but this isn't the point. The point is not if you are racist, or sexist or even ageist, but that you give the appearance of being what that.

Interesting.

What matters isn't what you think or what you are.

What matters is how you are perceived by others.

Glad I don't live in your world.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm annoyed that no-one mentioned Babylon 5's Susan Ivanova in their "strong woman" lists. Tough as old leather and utterly crazy too. How dare they carry on for a whole season without her!

 

[JarodRussell]

Interesting.

What matters isn't what you think or what you are.

What matters is how you are perceived by others.

Glad I don't live in your world.

You are what others see in you. What you think is not important, what you say and do is important to the rest of the world.

 

[teya]

Interesting.

What matters isn't what you think or what you are.

What matters is how you are perceived by others.

Glad I don't live in your world.

You are what others see in you. What you think is not important, what you say and do is important to the rest of the world.

Well, of course what you say and do is important.

However what Brit is saying is that the only thing that matters is how others perceive it.

Thus, I could say I grew a great deal during my late SO's final illness and death. I can reveal that I became a stronger and more independent person through my actions.

But since Brit believes that people do not grow through experiencing the death of a loved one, that they are only traumatized, it doesn't matter what I say, it doesn't matter what I do. In her eyes, I'm simply a traumatized widow.

It's all in the perception.

Those of us who don't mind the course the Voyager relaunch has gone are sexist. It doesn't matter what we say or do. It's all in the perception.

 

[LynnEGib]

Janeway is my favorite character in Star Trek and I have watched every episode of every series.I own every movie's DVD and all the DVD's of Voyager and Next Generation. I use to be glued to the first series when it first aired and that never changed. Why do I like Janeway best? First it pleased me that we had a female Captain as a lead. Second I have followed Kate Mulgrew's career starting by watching her as Mary Ryan on Ryan's Hope. I also loved her as Mrs. Columbo and as a doctor in Heartbeat.

I use to read star trek books, but since they "killed" Janewayt I have not nor will I until she is back. As soon as she is back I will start reading again. For now I read fan fiction only

 

[Thrawn]

Good post, teya. I think Brit's post is actually making a totally different point than she thinks, especially this:

There is no way killing the strongest female Trek character can appear to be anything other than a sexist act to an awful lot of female fans.

I think that means that an "awful lot" of female fans are conditioned to see certain acts as sexist regardless of their context, and that's a much greater shame.

 

[Thrawn]

Janeway is my favorite character in Star Trek and I have watched every episode of every series.I own every movie's DVD and all the DVD's of Voyager and Next Generation. I use to be glued to the first series when it first aired and that never changed. Why do I like Janeway best? First it pleased me that we had a female Captain as a lead. Second I have followed Kate Mulgrew's career starting by watching her as Mary Ryan on Ryan's Hope. I also loved her as Mrs. Columbo and as a doctor in Heartbeat.

I use to read star trek books, but since they "killed" Janewayt I have not nor will I until she is back. As soon as she is back I will start reading again. For now I read fan fiction only

Just to satisfy my own personal curiosity, what exactly would be "back" in your opinion? Would it count if she showed up, told everyone she was having a great old time in the Q Continuum, thanked everyone for their love, and went back to it? Would it count if she came back from the Q and retired on Earth to raise a family, and we never heard from her again? Would it count if she came back and was an Admiral that made occasional guest appearances but wasn't a regular in any particular series (much like she was before)? Or would she have to come back and be in command of Voyager?

 

[teya]

Good post, teya. I think Brit's post is actually making a totally different point than she thinks, especially this:

There is no way killing the strongest female Trek character can appear to be anything other than a sexist act to an awful lot of female fans.

I think that means that an "awful lot" of female fans are conditioned to see certain acts as sexist regardless of their context, and that's a much greater shame.

I agree.

 

[AuntKate]

That's me--mindreader par excellence!

Actually, you don't seem to be very good at it. Your accuracy rating is way down.

I was admitting as much, Teya. That's the meaning of the smiley, you know.

I wonder if they would care so much if this hadn't been rolled up into the TNG/DS9 relaunch? Perhaps they can live with her revival if she is in deep space where her actions won't directly impact what is going on back home?

For me, no.

I haven't read any TNG novels until this year and I've only read a few DS9.

Okay, that's one "no."

 

[teya]

That's me--mindreader par excellence!

Actually, you don't seem to be very good at it. Your accuracy rating is way down.

I was admitting as much, Teya. That's the meaning of the smiley, you know.

Actually, that smiley is used to mean a lot of different things. As is this one.

 

[elaithin]

I have to say, Brit, that being accused of being sexist is not something I've been labeled with in my life. Every woman I know is a strong one, and they have been my whole life.

I'll thank you not generalize about me personally based on my opinion of Janeway's death. Especially since your generalization doesn't seem to hold true for every single person you're talking about.

After all, I could say that all the more strident 'Bring Janeway Back' people are obsessed with the perception of Janeway as a critical figure on such a high pedestal that no other character in literature could possibly measure up to this perception of her.

I could say it, sure. But it doesn't make it true.

 

[AuntKate]

Actually, you don't seem to be very good at it. Your accuracy rating is way down.

I was admitting as much, Teya. That's the meaning of the smiley, you know.

Actually, that smiley is used to mean a lot of different things. As is this one.

Oh, sorry. I seem to have offended you.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

 

[F. King Daniel]

The horse isn't dead, it's just in the Q continuum.

It's death was only done as part of some greater anti-horse campaign, anyway.

There aren't enough strong horse role models anymore.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Speaking of TNG which did have main character died. Data died the same way in a way, of course for him it wasn't a failure.

What wasn't "a failure"?

Data is my all-time favourite character and I hated the lousy way he died. Had the movie included part the early long scene (see Bonus Features), where Picard and Data drink a toast and discuss the future, maybe it would have been a stronger story point. I should have been a blubbering mess at the end of "Nemesis", but my only tears were because opening night had so many vacant seats!

So I've managed to lose numerous favourites. Janeway would be my favourite VOY character. Jadzia for DS9. Probably Trip for ENT ('cos I can't really count Shran as a regular). But all of these deaths - and Sisko's onscreen departure - have lead to some wonderfully poignant scenes, some canonical and some in the licensed fiction. I love perky Ezri and we'd never have met her without Jadzia dying.

I guess my next dream novel would be a B-4 focused sequel to "Immortal Coil". (I wrote to Jeff Lang a few years ago letting him know what I'd love to see.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Let's please leave Data for the next long, drawn-out "bring back" thread.

I liked his death anyway. He sacrificed his life to save his friends. What more do you want? A ten-hour speech first?

 

[teya]

I was admitting as much, Teya. That's the meaning of the smiley, you know.

Actually, that smiley is used to mean a lot of different things. As is this one.

Oh, sorry. I seem to have offended you.

No, actually.

However, if you want to think you're getting a good laugh at my expense, be my guest. It's obviously important to you.