Should they bring back Janeway?

[Thestral]

Deep Space Nine is the series that tried to drive me away. I respect that there are Deep Space Nine fans, and don't feel the need to bash it, or them. To me Deep Space Nine is Star Trek in name only.

You've just bashed it.

Just because I presonally didn't care for Deep Space Nine as a series doesn't mean that I have bashed it. What you are saying I am cannot freely choose to express my opinion that I didn't care for Deep Space Nine it without somehow bashing it in the process.

Voyager is the series that tried to drive me away. I respect that there are Voyager fans, and don't feel the need to bash it, or them.To me Voyager is Star Trek in name only.

I await your calm statement that this doesn't constitute a bash of Voyager.

Also, I still hate Freedom, America, and kittens.

As I mentioned in my post, I do think you all have a point on this; the Voyager novels have, by and large, been seriously lacking.

I can think of an exception actually. The Invasion! crossover series, the TNG entry was definitely the worst. Granted, the VOY entry wasn't as good as the fantastic TOS or DS9 entries (IMO), but it was a solid little book.

 

[elaithin]

Down with Kittens!


You know, I think I actually disagree there. I think the TOS book was the strongest in the Invasion series, with the TNG and VOY books roughly tied - I didn't really care for the DS9 one.

 

[Thrawn]

And in my opinion, the TNG novel was completely acceptable, and the VOY novel was a totally disorganized, morally indefensible mess

All in the eye of the beholder, as usual...

 

[AuntKate]

I think some of you are painting Janeway fans in a poor light on purpose--but then some of you are prone to exaggerate to prove your point, methinks. Not to worry. I learned my fallacies well and can recognize hyperbole when I see it.

. . . I suspect there's very little that would make them happy.

Not true for most of us. I suppose there may be some with a pipe dream of a complete Voyager Relaunch, but that probably will never happen. I'd settle to have Voyager and her crew together again, and I think other VOY/Janeway fans would agree. That is very little to ask to make us happy.

"Aren't there boards better suited for this thread in its current state."

IOW, a thread about PB's decision whether or not to bring Janeway back belongs somewhere else BECAUSE you don't agree with what some posters are saying. Sounds a bit intolerant to me. Better yet, if you know there are going to be comments that you don't agree with, just avoid reading the thread. Where is IDIC when we need it?

About the Destiny plot's popularity?

Unpopular with a small group of fans, that is. Wildly popular with a larger group of others. It's brought in new readership to the series and opened up amazing story possibilities. It's a good time to be a Voyager and TrekLit fan.

There is a thread elsewhere in this forum that would put your "wildly" adjective into question: The state of Star Trek Lit There are a lot of readers posting there who dislike it and who are unhappy that all three on-air series (TNG, DS9, VOY) are tangled up in it. Perhaps it has sold well enough to keep going, but I think it is high time to try something different. What's the point of having three series if they are all doing the same thing?

However, if you think Full Circle and Unworthy sold well, bring Janeway back from the Q Continuum and I think the editors and writers will be pleasantly surprised at how well it sells. Frankly, I think that has been the whole point of this "Janeway saved by the Q" exercise--increase interest in and readership of the PB line, if not initially, then certainly after the fact. They will follow through with it, restore Janeway to the novels, and make a lot of people happy. Probably not some of you, but coming back from "death" is a Star Trek tradition we just have to learn to tolerate.

 

[Thestral]

Down with Kittens!


You know, I think I actually disagree there. I think the TOS book was the strongest in the Invasion series, with the TNG and VOY books roughly tied - I didn't really care for the DS9 one.

And in my opinion, the TNG novel was completely acceptable, and the VOY novel was a totally disorganized, morally indefensible mess

All in the eye of the beholder, as usual...

Oh, Trek fans. Part of what I loved about "Time's Enemy" was the character beats, especially for Jadzia; I think it's her best book, and the scene where she links with AncientDax is lovely. And it was good to see the thing that was worse than the Furies and find out why/how they got ejected from the AQ.

Perhaps it has sold well enough to keep going, but I think it is high time to try something different. What's the point of having three series if they are all doing the same thing?

They are doing different things. Abramsverse novels, anothologies, Infinity's Prism(s), Mirror Universe, and nobody's ruled out in-series Lit. And why would Pocket fundamentally change something that's making them good money?

However, if you think Full Circle and Unworthy sold well, bring Janeway back from the Q Continuum and I think the editors and writers will be pleasantly surprised at how well it sells.

If it's well written and tells a good story, of course it'll sell well. I'll bet you good money that if they did bring Janeway back in a well-written story, there would be maybe 10% of the childish whining and moaning that there has been over her death. And it certainly wouldn't be going strong years later.

If they brought Janeway back in a poorly-written story for whatever reason, up that number to 20%-30%, and it would still vanish in less than a year.

Frankly, I think that has been the whole point of this "Janeway saved by the Q" exercise--increase interest in and readership of the PB line, if not initially, then certainly after the fact. They will follow through with it, restore Janeway to the novels, and make a lot of people happy. Probably not some of you, but coming back from "death" is a Star Trek tradition we just have to learn to tolerate.

Err, no. The whole point of "Janeway saved by the Q" is that it was put in there specifically to appease CBS as a backdoor in case she needed to come back because of something canon. The only editorial comments there have been on Janeway's death is that as far as they're concerned, Janeway's absolutely dead.

 

[RonG]

I think some of you are painting Janeway fans in a poor light on purpose--but then some of you are prone to exaggerate to prove your point, methinks. Not to worry. I learned my fallacies well and can recognize hyperbole when I see it.

"Aren't there boards better suited for this thread in its current state."

IOW, a thread about PB's decision whether or not to bring Janeway back belongs somewhere else BECAUSE you don't agree with what some posters are saying. Sounds a bit intolerant to me. Better yet, if you know there are going to be comments that you don't agree with, just avoid reading the thread. Where is IDIC when we need it?

The fact that I disagree with some of the posters is obvious, as I continue to reply and post my opinion in this thread. I'm quite open to other POV's - if you recall, I specifically asked for Janeway fans recommendations on Janeway novels, to try and understand their viewpoint. If you'd also recall, I got practically nada - no novel recommendations save for 1 novel and 1 short story - on a Trek Lit board currently filled with fans who oppose a "current" TrekLit decision.

What I meant by my comment quoted above, is that the argument here has moved from Trek Lit and into other topics, for which there are specific boards. How can we have a TrekLit discussion, when the "other side" has no interest in TrekLit?

However, if you think Full Circle and Unworthy sold well, bring Janeway back from the Q Continuum and I think the editors and writers will be pleasantly surprised at how well it sells. Frankly, I think that has been the whole point of this "Janeway saved by the Q" exercise--increase interest in and readership of the PB line, if not initially, then certainly after the fact. They will follow through with it, restore Janeway to the novels, and make a lot of people happy. Probably not some of you, but coming back from "death" is a Star Trek tradition we just have to learn to tolerate.

Maybe KJ will be back, maybe not. The thing is, TrekLit readers (most of them AFAIK) will accept both outcomes when presented in a quality story. Janeway fans (at least some who posted here) won't be interested either way, as they're not TrekLit readers...

 

[Thestral]

Janeway fans (at least some who posted here) won't be interested either way, as they're not TrekLit readers...

Oh no, they'll be very interested. Because it means they've "won" and Pocket has bowed down to their pressure after seeing the wisdom of the vast amounts of money that can be made by the 500 members of the Church of the Living Janeway.

 

[Tidus79001]

Voyager is the series that tried to drive me away. I respect that there are Voyager fans, and don't feel the need to bash it, or them.To me Voyager is Star Trek in name only.

Star Trek: Voyager to me is the most close to vision of Star Trek that Gene Roddenberry created with the original series.

Michael Piller who was one of the three executive producers of Voyager made this statement in the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature that was included on the Voyager Season 1 DVD's

"We made it very clear that what appealed to us about that idea was that it it took us back to the basics of Roddenberry's original idea"

Jeri Taylor also said about the following about creation of Voyager on the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature:

“We really felt it was the way to be the truest to the ideals of star Trek”

I await your calm statement that this doesn't constitute a bash of Voyager.

That is your choice not like Voyager, and you are expressing your opinion on it (to me that isn't bashing Voyager). Just because you choose not to like Voyager that doesn't make me feel threatened by your opinion on it.

 

[RonG]

Janeway fans (at least some who posted here) won't be interested either way, as they're not TrekLit readers...

Oh no, they'll be very interested. Because it means they've "won" and Pocket has bowed down to their pressure after seeing the wisdom of the vast amounts of money that can be made by the 500 members of the Church of the Living Janeway.

If it means we'll get more quality stories from Kirsten, who cares?

In all honesty, this was an exercise in futility if there ever was one. The regulars here tried to understand the vocal newcomers, tried to engage in a deep(er) conversation with them, but what we got back were accusations of being sexist, anti-female, anti-freedom, and closed-minded..

While I do think that VOY was THE weakest of the Trek series (yes, including ENT), with THE weakest of the leads/captains and the just-about-weakest ensemble... but that doesn't mean I don't want to read GOOD stories about them, which is what Full Circle and Unworthy had been.. (and no, I'm not threatened or being threatening to opinions that oppose my own.. that's the whole deal of exchanging ideas on this boards..)

 

[JoeP]

There is a thread elsewhere in this forum that would put your "wildly" adjective into question: The state of Star Trek Lit There are a lot of readers posting there who dislike it and who are unhappy that all three on-air series (TNG, DS9, VOY) are tangled up in it.

And there are threads elsewhere that would back up the claim:
Full Circle review thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=86076&highlight=full+circle

Unworthy review thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=104157&highlight=unworthy

Kristen Beyer kudos thread:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=118659&highlight=unworthy

Perhaps it has sold well enough to keep going, but I think it is high time to try something different. What's the point of having three series if they are all doing the same thing?

I see, and "something different" would constitute returning command of Voyager to Janeway? Saw that for 7 years on TV, and 30+ books. No thanks.

And how are there 3 series all doing the same thing? TNG is dealing with the continued fallout of Destiny and the upcoming Typhon Pact; DS9 is in limbo since we don't know what shape the next book will take when it's brought up to speed with the rest of the TrekLit universe in the Typhon Pact series. But even prior to bringing it inline with the other series, the books were decidedly different from the others; and VOY is off exploring the DQ with a fleet of 8 other ships, gauging the power vacuum left when the Borg merged with the Caeliar, making new discoveries, and presumably following up on what was discovered prior in the series... yeah, business as usual!

However, if you think Full Circle and Unworthy sold well, bring Janeway back from the Q Continuum and I think the editors and writers will be pleasantly surprised at how well it sells. Frankly, I think that has been the whole point of this "Janeway saved by the Q" exercise--increase interest in and readership of the PB line, if not initially, then certainly after the fact. They will follow through with it, restore Janeway to the novels, and make a lot of people happy. Probably not some of you, but coming back from "death" is a Star Trek tradition we just have to learn to tolerate.

It was certainly not the intention when Before Dishonor was being written. It's been stated here MANY MANY MANY times before that the bits about Janeway going off with the Q were tacked on after the fact by request of CBS. Margaret Clark and PAD considered her dead in the strictest sense of the word and had no intention of bringing her back any time soon. Now, how things shake out with the new editors remains to be seen, but this was not an exercise to drum up interest in Janeway and to give her a hero's return to the land of the living.

 

[Thestral]

Voyager is the series that tried to drive me away. I respect that there are Voyager fans, and don't feel the need to bash it, or them.To me Voyager is Star Trek in name only.

Star Trek: Voyager to me is the most close to vision of Star Trek that Gene Roddenberry created with the original series.

Michael Piller who was one of the three executive producers of Voyager made this statement in the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature that was included on the Voyager Season 1 DVD's

"We made it very clear that what appealed to us about that idea was that it it took us back to the basics of Roddenberry's original idea"

Jeri Taylor also said about the following about creation of Voyager on the "Braving The Unknown" bonus feature:

“We really felt it was the way to be the truest to the ideals of star Trek”

Honestly, I think "Roddenberry's vision" is a bit overrated. It's widely considered to be true that early TNG (especially S1) was the closest to "his vision" since he had a lot of help and (sometimes uncredited) co-creators with TOS.

Which isn't to say Roddenberry's vision was bad, but he needed somebody to work with him and reign him in. It was early TNG that led to Behr and co's decision to go the other direction they did with DS9, I think. Piller (as I recall) is who really shaped TNG into its "classic" form, but he seems to be a guy that likes to give credit to others. Which is great.

I await your calm statement that this doesn't constitute a bash of Voyager.

That is your choice not like Voyager, and you are expressing your opinion on it (to me that isn't bashing Voyager). Just because you choose not to Voyager that doesn't make me feel threatened by your opinion on it.

That's actually not my opinion. I was trying to see how you'd react if the shoes was on the other foot, and apparently you don't consider it a bash to declare something "Star Trek in name only." Which is fine, but don't be surprised if a lot of people take it pejoratively.

Janeway fans (at least some who posted here) won't be interested either way, as they're not TrekLit readers...

Oh no, they'll be very interested. Because it means they've "won" and Pocket has bowed down to their pressure after seeing the wisdom of the vast amounts of money that can be made by the 500 members of the Church of the Living Janeway.

If it means we'll get more quality stories from Kirsten, who cares?

In all honesty, this was an exercise in futility if there ever was one. The regulars here tried to understand the vocal newcomers, tried to engage in a deep(er) conversation with them, but what we got back were accusations of being sexist, anti-female, anti-freedom, and close-minded..

Excellent points both!

 

[JD]

There is a thread elsewhere in this forum that would put your "wildly" adjective into question: The state of Star Trek Lit There are a lot of readers posting there who dislike it and who are unhappy that all three on-air series (TNG, DS9, VOY) are tangled up in it.

Yes, but if you had been here as the books were first coming out you would have seen almost universal praise.
EDIT: Ok, I just counted up the coments in that thread, and the good far surpasses the bad.
Good: 17
Mixed: 2
Bad: 6
It was just that the bad were alot louder than the good.

 

[Tidus79001]

I have never insulted the writers to Star Trek books. If I didn't like the writing I wouldn't have kept reading them for over 20 years & still read them even today.

My thanks to all of the authors over the years who have contributed to the world of Star Trek (both paid authors, and fan authors).

My use of phrase "so called professional books" was meant that just because someone wasn't paid to write something doesn't necessarily make it not professional. Professional is often such a relative term.

Yes you did. You called their books 'so-called "professional novels", in inverted commas, thus suggesting that they are not truly professional. That was my point.

My point here was that I don't feel that only paid writers are professional writers. Writing something without being paid doesn't necessarily make it an unprofessional piece or work.

I find it interesting that when you quoted me you took it out of context by leaving out the part where I thanked all of the authors who have contributed to Star Trek over the year (you will see that I have taken the liberty of editing it back in). It seems to me that you did that because you wanted to twist my words into an insult.

I have nothing but respect for the writers who have wrote Star Trek books for pocket books over the years. Just because I don't like that they killed Admiral Janeway off in the novels that doesn't me that I have any less respect for them, nor does it mean that I plan to stop reading their books in the future. I wouldn't still be reading their books today if I didn't respect them as writers.

 

[RonG]

I have never insulted the writers to Star Trek books. If I didn't like the writing I wouldn't have kept reading them for over 20 years & still read them even today.

My thanks to all of the authors over the years who have contributed to the world of Star Trek (both paid authors, and fan authors).

My use of phrase "so called professional books" was meant that just because someone wasn't paid to write something doesn't necessarily make it not professional. Professional is often such a relative term.

Yes you did. You called their books 'so-called "professional novels", in inverted commas, thus suggesting that they are not truly professional. That was my point.

My point here was that I don't feel that only paid writers are professional writers. Writing something without being paid doesn't necessarily make it an unprofessional piece or work.

I find it interesting that when you quoted me you took it out of context by leaving out the part where I thanked all of the authors who have contributed to Star Trek over the year (you will see that I have taken the liberty of editing it back in). It seems to me that you did that because you wanted to twist my words into an insult.

I have nothing but respect for the writers who have wrote Star Trek books for pocket books over the years. Just because I don't like that they killed Admiral Janeway off in the novels that doesn't me that I have any less respect for them, nor does it mean that I plan to stop reading their books in the future. I wouldn't still be reading their books today if I didn't respect them as writers.

Actually, as I see it, you're a "professional", if its your "profession" i.e. job - which means getting paid to do it.
Otherwise you're an "amateur". As far as Trek novelists are concerned, I know that many got their start as fanfic writers, but they became "professional" writers, once they were hired to write and paid for it.

Also, if you're still reading Trek novels (a rarity among the Janeway fans I've come across on this thread), I would love to hear your thoughts and recommendations on VOY novels

 

[Tidus79001]

Yes you did. You called their books 'so-called "professional novels", in inverted commas, thus suggesting that they are not truly professional. That was my point.

My point here was that I don't feel that only paid writers are professional writers. Writing something without being paid doesn't necessarily make it an unprofessional piece or work.

I find it interesting that when you quoted me you took it out of context by leaving out the part where I thanked all of the authors who have contributed to Star Trek over the year (you will see that I have taken the liberty of editing it back in). It seems to me that you did that because you wanted to twist my words into an insult.

I have nothing but respect for the writers who have wrote Star Trek books for pocket books over the years. Just because I don't like that they killed Admiral Janeway off in the novels that doesn't me that I have any less respect for them, nor does it mean that I plan to stop reading their books in the future. I wouldn't still be reading their books today if I didn't respect them as writers.

Actually, as I see it, you're a "professional", if its your "profession" i.e. job - which means getting paid to do it.
Otherwise you're an "amateur". As far as Trek novelists are concerned, I know that many got their start as fanfic writers, but they became "professional" writers, once they were hired to write and paid for it.

Also, if you're still reading Trek novels (a rarity among the Janeway fans I've come across on this thread), I would love to hear your thoughts and recommendations on VOY novels

Definitely I still plan on reading Star Trek novels including the new Voyager novels where Janeway is dead. It has been a while since I have read most of my Voyager novels (I do own novels from all of the different Star Trek series), and I will need look at them a little before I can say which ones I recommend, but once I look them over I will let you know

Honestly I don't recall not liking any of the novels off hand (I even like the novels where Admrial Janeway died, or is dead regardless of my opinion on her death).

I would enjoy having a nice Star Trek conversation with you & other the members on this board. Just because we don't always agree on all things Star Trek doesn't mean we can't enjoy a good chat.

 

[Pauln6]

Did she die before or after she went back in time to save Voyager's crew?

 

[RonG]

My point here was that I don't feel that only paid writers are professional writers. Writing something without being paid doesn't necessarily make it an unprofessional piece or work.

I find it interesting that when you quoted me you took it out of context by leaving out the part where I thanked all of the authors who have contributed to Star Trek over the year (you will see that I have taken the liberty of editing it back in). It seems to me that you did that because you wanted to twist my words into an insult.

I have nothing but respect for the writers who have wrote Star Trek books for pocket books over the years. Just because I don't like that they killed Admiral Janeway off in the novels that doesn't me that I have any less respect for them, nor does it mean that I plan to stop reading their books in the future. I wouldn't still be reading their books today if I didn't respect them as writers.

Actually, as I see it, you're a "professional", if its your "profession" i.e. job - which means getting paid to do it.
Otherwise you're an "amateur". As far as Trek novelists are concerned, I know that many got their start as fanfic writers, but they became "professional" writers, once they were hired to write and paid for it.

Also, if you're still reading Trek novels (a rarity among the Janeway fans I've come across on this thread), I would love to hear your thoughts and recommendations on VOY novels

Definitely I still plan on reading Star Trek novels including the new Voyager novels where Janeway is dead. It has been a while since I have read most of my Voyager novels (I do own novels from all of the different Star Trek series), and I will need look at them a little before I can say which ones I recommend, but once I look them over I will let you know

Honestly I don't recall not liking any of the novels off hand (I even like the novels where Admrial Janeway died, or is dead regardless of my opinion on her death).

I would enjoy having a nice Star Trek conversation with you & other the members on this board. Just because we don't always agree on all things Star Trek doesn't mean we can't enjoy a good chat.

Absolutely! also, I'm looking forward to your recommendations

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Did she die before or after she went back in time to save Voyager's crew?

That future was kind of invalidated BY Janeway going back in time. Remember in Admiral Janeway's original timeline Voyager didn't go through the Transwarp hub and took many more years to get home as well as the fact that Seven died and Tuvok went insane in that timeline before Voyager got home, this is why she went back in the first place.

 

[seigezunt]

I think some of you are painting Janeway fans in a poor light on purpose

What can I say? Some of us prefer illustration over impressionism.

 

[Thrawn]

EDIT: Others beat me to it. Ignore this post.