Should they bring back Janeway?

[ClayinCA]

I don't have a real emotional attachment to Janeway alive or dead; what I want are Voyager books that are as well-written

Have you ever read "The Captain's Table: Fire Ship" by Diane Carey? It's a Solo Janeway story, essentially a long adventure that happened - I guess - between the canonical episodes where she changed hairstyle from that "bun of steel" to the shorter, softer style.

But it remains my favourite VOY in-series book. Great new alien tech and cool to see Janeway working her way up the pecking order from lowly tile-scrubber in the bowels of a spaceship to demonstrating her leadership skills.

You know, I haven't read that. I may give it a try if I can locate a copy; I generally don't like Diane Carey's 24th-century Trek output, but her TOS books were big favorites back in the day. Thanks for the recommendation!

Most fans would gladly read about her return and many would celebrate.

Okay, but "many" would not. Why is your "many" better than the other "many"?

If some readers prefer a different pattern to their novels, there are plenty out there to read.

And if some readers prefer Voyager novels where Janeway is still alive, there are plenty out there to read as well. Aren't there?

Trek novels have traditionally had an expected structure that has served it well, similar to the expected structure of a mystery or romance. And before you turn your nose up at such a comparison, remember that those types of novels sell better than any other in the market today.

Okay, but...

Why try to make Trek into something it isn't?

...What, like a romance novel?

I'm not against change, but I don't believe in arbitrary change

But there's nothing to indicate that the death of Janeway was arbitrary, and lots of comments from Margaret Clark explaining exactly why it wasn't arbitrary.

Look at "New Coke," if you have doubts. The old Coke fans didn't buy new Coke and a lot never returned to the fold when the "original recipe" returned.

And in the case of the Voyager books, there were some--myself included--who didn't like them before the new direction, would never have considered buying a Voyager novel before the new direction, and are new to the fold now that there is a new direction. Why are those people's tastes or preferences less valid than yours?

Let's not try to make Trek novels into something they aren't.

Which no one is, last I looked.

I'm sorry if I sound confrontational here--as I said in an earlier post, I don't have an attachment to Voyager-with-Janeway so much as I want good stories, well-written and with interesting characters and situations. I like evolution in storytelling, as long as it results in a good story, and I don't feel that Janeway needs to be resurrected in order to accomplish that. If, however, Kirsten Beyer or someone else comes up with a great Voyager storyline that does bring back the Admiral, then more power to them (hell, the same goes for Data, come to that). But necessary? I don't see it.

 

[Kataaran]

Damn it I promised myself I wouldn't get into this thread but...

And if some readers prefer Voyager novels where Janeway is still alive, there are plenty out there to read as well. Aren't there?

But there aren't likely to be many new ones. I have six unread Voyager novels. Once they're done I'll be stuck. If I want to read a Trek book without Janeway I'll read a DS9 or TNG or TOS or ... you get the idea?

 

[AuntKate]

Damn it I promised myself I wouldn't get into this thread but...

And if some readers prefer Voyager novels where Janeway is still alive, there are plenty out there to read as well. Aren't there?

But there aren't likely to be many new ones. I have six unread Voyager novels. Once they're done I'll be stuck. If I want to read a Trek book without Janeway I'll read a DS9 or TNG or TOS or ... you get the idea?

I do.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I don't mean to be rude, but I still don't fully understand everyone's position on this. It seems to me we have three Janeway-related options:

One: She stays dead and we continue to explore the lives of Voyager characters without her, how they adapt to her absence and adapt to new people in the positions they're used to seeing Janeway in. How they cope with a Janeway-shaped hole in their lives and in their collective "family". This would be my choice, especially seeing as Full Circle and Unworthy were so good, but I understand why some Janeway fans don't like it; basically, no Janeway to continue adventures with. They want to see more of her, and feel it's not complete or "right" without her. I disagree, but I understand the position. They want Janeway to continue her adventures. I like the character, I can understand this.

Two: Books set during the series. Janeway is present, sitting on Voyager's centre seat and generally Being Janeway. Okay, I certainly see the appeal- as I said, I like Janeway- but what will she do other than what she's done a thousand times before? Surely she has to go somewhere eventually? If there isn't any opportunity for character development what's the point in coming back to her again and again as a static, unchanging character? Just to see her, like a museum exhibit? "Here's Janeway, as she was seen many times on TV and in novels, being Voyager's captain?" It's nice every now and then to have a nostalgia fix, but I personally like development,change in circumstance over time. I mean, I understand entirely why her death annoyed people (even though I was fine with it) because you can't have any fresh Janeway stories- but you can't have fresh Janeway stories in novels set during the series either, can you? We can't see her grow, adapt, develop relationships, we can't learn fascinating new things about her. Everything's locked into status quo. Okay, the various facets to Janeway we saw on TV (inconsistant writing or not) make it interesting- what aspect of this character are we dealing with here- but, again, how many times can we go over the same material? The same character in the same position in the same environment in the same time frame? We'll exhaust the Janeway character's potential eventually, which is surely the last thing a Janeway fan wants.

Three: She returns from the dead. This certainly solves the problems of a) no further Janeway, and b) repetitive status quo. Things can continue to change and develop, but Janeway can go on too. So that's fine. But it's quite clearly shown us that Janeway May Not Die. So the character is "safe". The walls are closing in in a big way. If she can't die, is she allowed to switch career paths? To marry and start a family? To start altering her behaviour as the years go on and her personality evolves? Where do we stop? How far can we go from status quo Janeway before it becomes a no-no and reset button kicks in? It's all artificial- we have change and ongoing adventures, but it's simply the museum exhibit being carted from museum to museum, isn't it? Janeway is still not permitted to be the dynamic character Janeway-fans love.

I know how I felt when Janeway died; Janeway's gone?! OMG they actually killed off Janeway! But that led to "How will Seven and Tuvok and Chakotay and B'Elanna etc, etc cope with this? What will be the response? How can Voyager continue without Janeway?" I miss the character, believe me. I bought into the "Janeway as centre of Voyager, matriarch of the family" interpretation. But that helps me empathise with the other characters following her death- what now? How do we cope with Janeway no longer here? And the character will still cast her shadow- if there aren't many "what would Janeway have done?" conversations or musings in the next few Voy-relaunch books, I'll be amazed.

I don't really see how any of the options above- death, bringing her back, or more TV-series timeframe novels- allow the character to truly have full, complete development. So the issue really is, should Janeway have died in the first place? Well, she did. It happened. I can understand a viewpoint of "she shouldn't have", but I personally prefer the sense that those safety barriers have been removed. If she wasn't ever allowed to do something as shocking and status-quo destroying as dying, was it worth following any continuing adventures anyway? Would she or anyone else have been permitted any real, emotionally-compelling change at all?

It seems to me that the only remaining question is: why Janeway and not, say, Picard? If someone had to fall to shock us all out of status quo and keep things compelling and open to change, why Janeway? Could this have been a "should they bring back Picard?" thread. Would Picard have died in "Destiny" had we not already lost a captain?

 

[elaithin]

AuntKate, a fundamental part of storytelling is growth and change. Just as life. A static story where nothing ever happens - well, it's boring. It has no purpose. You might as well be watching paint dry.

Great - or even just good - stories come from drama, from character growth, from interaction and reaction. And in order for stories to remain compelling and relevant, particularly with something like the forty-year history of Star Trek, progression must occur. This means, with such a large cast of characters, that people will change. They will get married. They will have children. They will change careers. They will do things we the omnipotent reader don't like, and they'll do things we love. And yes, they'll even die. They do all these things, because a fully realized character is just as real to some as a person. And how the characters respond to all those things, and how it makes us, the reader, feel...

Well. That's the point of any story, isn't it?

Janeway's death gets a reaction out of you, that's good. But simply 'undoing' her death just because cheapens the entire story, and the entire medium, and the overall quality of the book line.

You deride the books for not being "Literature." Let me let you in on a secret - there's no such thing. There's just stories, and whether they're good or bad is entirely up to us.

 

[captcalhoun]

i'm still trying to understand why people who admit they never read the books and now say they never will read the books persist in expending all this time and energy about something they clearly don't give a flying fuck about. it's so pointless.

if there's someone like Trent Roman who's read the books and is reading the books and wants to bitch that they don't like Janeway being dead, fine. i can understand that.

but when all these MJFs turn up, it just makes me think 'haven't you got anything more important to worry about than the fate of a fictional character in a book series you don't even read?'

 

[seigezunt]

MJFs?

Anyway, I've been trying to watch VOY all the way through in order to get references in the current treklit, e.g., what happened with the Borg. But I can't do it, it's just too brutal. I'm going to have to watch just a list of relevent episodes that have been suggested to me. It's just too, too awful.

 

[captcalhoun]

militant janeway fans not Michael Jan Friedman

 

[seigezunt]

militant janeway fans not Michael Jan Friedman

Oh. I was thinking ... Mama Janeway Fuckers?

 

[JarodRussell]

militant janeway fans not Michael Jan Friedman

Maybe he is a militant janeway fan after all.

 

[LightningStorm]

...but what will she do other than what she's done a thousand times before? Surely she has to go somewhere eventually? If there isn't any opportunity for character development what's the point in coming back to her again and again as a static, unchanging character? Just to see her, like a museum exhibit?

...but you can't have fresh Janeway stories in novels set during the series either, can you? We can't see her grow, adapt, develop relationships, we can't learn fascinating new things about her. Everything's locked into status quo.

AuntKate, a fundamental part of storytelling is growth and change. Just as life. A static story where nothing ever happens - well, it's boring. It has no purpose. You might as well be watching paint dry.

Great - or even just good - stories come from drama, from character growth, from interaction and reaction. And in order for stories to remain compelling and relevant, particularly with something like the forty-year history of Star Trek, progression must occur.

Man, I didn't realize the TOS and TNG fans had is so badly what with their 40+ and 20+ years worth of non growth boring, museum piece captains, whose drama-free adventures were like watching paint dry.

But anyway, I think both sides of this issue are conflating good story elements with good stories in general. There can be good stories with or without Janeway. There can be good stories where Janeway is dead, there can be good stories where Janeway never died to begin with, there can be good stories where Janeway died and then is resurrected later. The very notion that a story can't possibly be good because Janeway is dead is ludicrous, as is the notion that a story can't be good simply because a "reset button" was pressed.

I don't understand why we need to blame entire line quality on one story element that we don't like. I tend to be on the "Janeway needs to be alive" side of this argument but because I happen to have a personal preference that she be alive doesn't mean that if she isn't that the books are automatically terrible books.

And for the record: Allyn hit the nail on the head for why I think Janeway needs to be alive or brought back. Because the book in which she died was TERRIBLE (IMO of course) and made worse by the fact that it wasn't a Voyager book. And I said in the State of Trek Lit thread that I don't even care how she is brought back because I don't think that her being brought back can "cheapen" an already horrible and "cheap" death.

 

[Lonemagpie]

militant janeway fans not Michael Jan Friedman

Oh. I was thinking ... Mama Janeway Fuckers?

Where do I sign up?

I've said all along she needs a good seeing-to. And given the choice between "Ripley"-Janeway in Macrocosm and catsuited Seven, I know which one I'd be dragging back to the cave...

 

[captcalhoun]

you're welcome to her.

 

[AuntKate]

militant janeway fans not Michael Jan Friedman

Oh. I was thinking ... Mama Janeway Fuckers?

Where do I sign up?

I've said all along she needs a good seeing-to. And given the choice between "Ripley"-Janeway in Macrocosm and catsuited Seven, I know which one I'd be dragging back to the cave...

Yeah. That's what all women need--a good seeing-to. As if.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Oh. I was thinking ... Mama Janeway Fuckers?

Where do I sign up?

I've said all along she needs a good seeing-to. And given the choice between "Ripley"-Janeway in Macrocosm and catsuited Seven, I know which one I'd be dragging back to the cave...

Yeah. That's what all women need--a good seeing-to. As if.

Actually she's the only one who springs to mind...

And she also strikes me as the kind who'd be into that play.

(I wouldn't have thought I'd have to specify I'm talking consensual seeing-to here, YMMV according to local colloquialistic variations)

Of course, fair's fair, I'd be up for being her clapped-in-irons mutinous underling needing reminded who's boss the next night...

 

[F. King Daniel]

(never mind)

 

[Therin of Andor]

When it was leaked that Janeway was likely to die in "Before Dishonor", I happily consigned the rumour to the "she'll be back in time for the next big anniversary" pile of story arcs. Margaret Clark later explained the reasoning that went into choosing this new direction for the VOY characters. And being promoted to the Admirality in the canonical "Nemesis" meant that Janeway really couldn't suddenly return to her old ship, and her original Delta Quadrant storyline was done and dusted. And the old "demoting the admiral to captain" chestnut had been done - several times - with James T Kirk.

I remember Marco Palmieri saying he'd rather a ST novel polarize the audience with strong reactions than to produce a bland, throwaway novel that offended no one and was quickly forgotten. If I may say so, many of the numbered VOY novels were bland, throwaway novels that offended no one. I tend to remember plot details of ST novels I read, but the early VOY ones were very hit and miss, with lots of misses.

Was it about a year after the character died that a group of TrekBBS Janeway supporters heard that the licensed fiction had dared to kill off their favourite character while they weren't looking? Some of us tried to say to them, "Don't worry, science fiction deaths of regulars - especially in licensed spin-offs - are rarely/never permanent", but some of their bizarre reactions seemed to make the possibility of Janeway actually staying dead an interesting, refreshing change from the status quo. If I'd been a Pocket editor, I'd be tempted to do something radical just to keep everyone on the hop. Despite Margaret Clark saying that, as far as she was concerned, Janeway was dead and never coming back, I've seen the same things said by others about Jean Grey, Spock, Superman, Batman, Tasha Yar, Kirk, Wonderwoman, Wondergirl/Troia, Bruce Wayne, The Joker, Captain America, The Flash, Ben Sisko and Data/B-4. And they've all come back! Even Janeway is in "Star Trek Online", which is long set after "Before Dishonor" and "Full Circle".

I still think she'll be back in time for the next big anniversary of VOY. However, even that will not satisfy the Janeway supporters - many of whom stated, very proudly, that they gave up on licensed ST tie-ins many, many years before Janeway was killed off - since they also seem to want her to undergo a demotion back to captain and somehow end up back in command of the USS Voyager, which is, I suppose, supposed to be her 'first, best destiny"? The solution we offered some of them was the concept of in-series novels, set during Voyager's seven year mission, but no, those stories would be forever tainted because they'd know that Janeway would be slated to die. This really is a "no-win scenario" for them. But it was a problem with its roots waaaaay back when they stopped supporting VOY novels. I wish I could offer them some advice that would be worth having, but I'm really at a loss as to what would pacify them. A personal re-set button? A Klingon bird of prey to slingshot themselves around a sun and reverse history? I really don't know.

From what I've heard, the recent VOY novels have sold extremely well and have been positively reviewed. The old numbered VOY numbers did not do the sales figures Pocket wanted, and that was when the series was on-air, providing a theoretical prominence for those books. I started reading "Full Circle" recently, and really only got through the prologue before I had to do other things - but it was beautiful! Can't wait to get back to it. I still think it's inevitable that Janeway shall return from her sojourn with Lady Q. It won't be to pacify anyone; it'll be because a clever idea comes along. The challenge will be giving her storylines that will make the most of the character's renewed potential. Spock, Kirk and Sisko returned from the afterlife changed people. As you would.

 

[Steve Roby]

^^ I hope you feel the same way about change when Admiral Janeway returns from the Q Continuum.

Actually, I was surprised when I read that Margaret Clark intended Janeway to be dead, dead, dead, because I figured the stuff with Janeway going off with the Q meant she was about as dead as Picard in Tapestry and every bit as certain to be back before long.

Why deviate completely from the structure and patterns that have been successful for the franchise for over thirty years?

Which structure and patterns? The first season of TOS, any season of TNG, the last season of DS9, the last season of Enterprise... there's a lot of difference between them.

Not to mention (though it's been repeatedly mentioned) that filmed Trek killed off Kirk and Data, among others, and as far as canon is concerned they're still dead.

 

[JD]

^^ I hope you feel the same way about change when Admiral Janeway returns from the Q Continuum.

But, to follow up on that, Trek novels are best (IMHO) when they follow the tried-and-true format, and, since the reset button is a time-honored element of Trek, I see no reason to toss it out completely. I don't understand why this is the place that we have to draw the line in the sand. Bring her back. Most fans would gladly read about her return and many would celebrate.

If some readers prefer a different pattern to their novels, there are plenty out there to read. Trek novels have traditionally had an expected structure that has served it well, similar to the expected structure of a mystery or romance. And before you turn your nose up at such a comparison, remember that those types of novels sell better than any other in the market today.

Why try to make Trek into something it isn't? Why deviate completely from the structure and patterns that have been successful for the franchise for over thirty years? Has this Relaunch done so well that it justifies forgetting about the former successful plot structures and characters? Isn't there room for a little of both?

I'm not against change, but I don't believe in arbitrary change--and I think it is an especially bad idea when you are dealing with a fan base. Look at "New Coke," if you have doubts. The old Coke fans didn't buy new Coke and a lot never returned to the fold when the "original recipe" returned.

I'm sorry, but the ongoing story arcs are not something new to Trek, we did get some pretty complex arcs in the last 3 or so seasons of DS9 and the last 2 of Ent. Not only that but arcs in media are very popular right now, just look at some of the most popular TV shows, like Desperate Housewives, Lost, Battlestar Galactica. Hell, even alot of the shows that mostly do just stand alone mysteries do arcs now. Just look at the Le Grounue (Not sure if I spelled that right) arc in NCIS, the Miniature Killer and Doctor Jekyll in CSI, and even Pysch has it's Mister Yin arc.
This isn't "Literature" with a capital "L," folks. This is scifi fiction, escapist fiction at its best, IMHO.

These books are for fast consumption, not for lasting popularity and dozens of reprints. Let's not try to make Trek novels into something they aren't.

^ I take issue with the argument that Trek novels shouldn't strive to be better than throwaway standalones. I happen to re-read old Trek novels fairly frequently.
Some of the early Star Wars novels have been reprinted dozens of times; they had fairly lasting popularity. Why is that off limits for Star Trek, in your opinion?

I've also got to disagree here, I've read plenty of Trek that is just as good, if not more, than the "Literature" that I've read. In fact, I wouldn't have any problem saying that I've probably enjoyed the majority of Trek more than the "Literature" that I've read.

 

[chelly]

I don't know with the MJF's all crying about it, I almost hope Janeway never returns. Yes I know I don't have to read the threads they are in.

Though it would be interesting to have Janeway return with the Q's, but not necessarly to Voyager.