It's cyclic. At the moment there are numerous TNG mini-series comics available, all set during the series. Also a DS9 one.
Should they bring back Janeway?
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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It's cyclic. At the moment there are numerous TNG mini-series comics available, all set during the series. Also a DS9 one.
I respectfully disagree. It just shows how plugged into TrekLit you are. If a new reader picked up the DS9 novel or the VOY one, they would most likely be disappointed to find that none of the characters they see on screen are there. I'd think that PB would be interested in expanding their readership rather than narrowing it by getting so far afield from the onscreen canon. That is, if their goal is to keep selling more books.
I think it's also worth pointing out that if somebody is going to be picking up one of the relaunch books then
1) They have probably finished watching the show, or are at least aware that the books take place after the show, so
2)they are most likely aware that some of the characters left at the end of the show, or at least that things changed when it ended, so therefore
3) Those missing characters, or changed cercumstances will not be a suprise, so they will probably not be upset that those changes have/are occurred/ing
I don't know about anyone else, but when I started the DS9R I was perfectly aware that Worf, Sisko, Odo, and O'Brien were gone, and when I started the TNG Relaunch I was perfectly aware that Data, Riker, and Troi were gone.
FYI every Star Trek show (bar poor TAS) in being constantly rerun in England, along with the Stargates and recently Babylon 5 (which I caught this time and loved - so retuns still do create new fans!). Next week they start Farscape. Great to be a sci-fi fan here!
Have you read Full Circle and Unworthy or haven't you? That's the only context that matters.
Not at all. What I'm saying is that a lot of us enjoy books with new characters and new perspectives on Trek. Some of us are fascinated by, for example, the way the DS9 books successfully introduced so many new characters and made us care about them. Some of us love Vanguard, which has very few characters who first appeared on screen. Likewise some of us love New Frontier, which combined a couple of characters seen once or twice on TNG with a lot of new characters.
And then there's the hardcore Janeway fans, who seem to be fans of a single character rather than fans of the bigger Star Trek universe. The absence of a key TV character is a major turn-off for them. They're not interested in the dramatic possibilities that change could produce, some seem to be unaware or unconcerned that similar changes have happened elsewhere in the Trek book line, they just want their one favourite character back.
I'm not talking about "real fans" here. I'm talking about what, specifically, some people are fans of.
Mareika - did you read the VOY novels with Chakotay as captain? what did you think of them?
what about Janeway as admiral?
Okay, I've decided to take umbrage with this.
I am a "bring Janeway back" person who is also a "real" Trek fan.What I enjoyed in Voyager,DS9, and TNG was the community of characters, starting with the captain (I'm a captain fan first and foremost in every series). I want to read about those characters in the books. I don't want new captains or ships or crews. I'm interested in the dramatic possibilities that the on-screen community of people might face, and I'm not going to purchase or read novels that don't have those people--especially the captains. Yeah, that means I haven't bought any Trek novels lately.
I started buying Trek books back in the 70's, before Pocket Books got the rights to publish them. I have all of the TNG numbered novels, all of the Voyager numbered novels, a few DS9 novels, all ten of the Strange New Worlds, and most of the cross-over series. Several shelves of my bookcase and boxes in my basement are dedicated to the Trek novels I've purchased over the years.
I like Trek to be the Trek I know and remember. When I want reality, I'll turn to the classics or popular fiction TYVM. So I take umbrage (love that word!) at the implication that because I want Janeway back I am not a "real" Trek fan. I say the opposite is true. In the meantime, it's long past time to get back to the basics in Treklit.
So, you're happy just so long as nothing changes, and they hit the Reset button and shut the lights out at the end of each novel?
Not that I mind stand-alones, or books set in the tv-run timeframe, or even the old TOS books which made the 5 year mission last about 140 years, but I find that the recent trend to extend the novels PAST the series' continuity an interesting read. Less playing it safe, more room to explore the characters and universe, and things can actually change or happen. Could have done basically the same "new mission to the DQ" storyline with Janeway leading the charge (and most VOY fanfic does decide to go this route), but this has added another dynamic to it.
Do I think the way Janeway was written out was fairly shitty? Absolutely. Not that they did it, just that the way she went was pretty poor, and in a fairly crappy book, and then they dragged her corpse out and made her the bad guy for a little bit.
On the other hand, the last few VOY books have been some of the best that have come out, and taken a poorly-written death and done some great things with it. Janeway fans won't read the books because she isn't in them, but I'd argue she has a large role in those books, and is reflected in the actions of each of the characters. Her death has been more interesting than anything she'd currently be doing, especially since she was either behind a desk, or just off flying diplomatic cameo missions to get wedged into the last few books. Not opposed to more books set in the DQ with the old crew, but the new stuff is interesting too.
Not that I mind stand-alones, or books set in the tv-run timeframe, or even the old TOS books which made the 5 year mission last about 140 years, but I find that the recent trend to extend the novels PAST the series' continuity an interesting read. Less playing it safe, more room to explore the characters and universe, and things can actually change or happen. Could have done basically the same "new mission to the DQ" storyline with Janeway leading the charge (and most VOY fanfic does decide to go this route), but this has added another dynamic to it.
Do I think the way Janeway was written out was fairly shitty? Absolutely. Not that they did it, just that the way she went was pretty poor, and in a fairly crappy book, and then they dragged her corpse out and made her the bad guy for a little bit.
On the other hand, the last few VOY books have been some of the best that have come out, and taken a poorly-written death and done some great things with it. Janeway fans won't read the books because she isn't in them, but I'd argue she has a large role in those books, and is reflected in the actions of each of the characters. Her death has been more interesting than anything she'd currently be doing, especially since she was either behind a desk, or just off flying diplomatic cameo missions to get wedged into the last few books. Not opposed to more books set in the DQ with the old crew, but the new stuff is interesting too.
Quoted for truth!
Besides, fans of the "old" status quo always have the option to buy older novles (and future TV era). Fans who want change have but one option...
But AuntKate, if they brought Janeway back she wouldn't be the captain. She'd probably be back as the admiral handing out missions to all the "imposter" crews you dislike.
It sounds lile you wouldn't buy the novels unless they were set during the TV series, and before her death anyway. Thus resurrecting Admiral Janeway post-Before Dishonor/Destiny/whatever would be pointless in your eyes. Right?
It sounds lile you wouldn't buy the novels unless they were set during the TV series, and before her death anyway. Thus resurrecting Admiral Janeway post-Before Dishonor/Destiny/whatever would be pointless in your eyes. Right?
(I seem to have become some sort of double-post factory. Apologies.)
Really too bad that so many Janeway fans have decided (at least, some of the vocal ones here) to boycott those books, as janeway gets better treatment in these last few books than she'd gotten in quite some time. Hell, she's the biggest character in Full Circle, while dead in 95% of it. Odd to have no interest in reading such a moving tribute to your favorite character...
Not necessarily. I've liked Titan for the most part, loved Destiny, but did not like Beyer's Voyager at all.
The Janeway debate is always interesting. Personally, I dont think she should have been killed off. Just because it changed the status quo doesnt mean it was a good idea. Was she being used great before her death? No. But I think a character like hers is of more use to a universe alive where she can be used, than dead where she cant. So if it was upto me, I'd say bring her back.
End of the day, I'd rather read a slightly dodgy way of ressurecting her than Chakotay being upset she's dead.
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For my money, it's the quality of writing that makes the determination for me. The current Voyager books are excellently written, and very compelling. I like them, and intend to continue buying them. That is not something I could ever say about Voyager books before.
So, in that vein, I'm perfectly happy with Janeway's fate. I thought she had a fittingly tragic end - hey, it was better than having a bridge fall on her - and the material it's given the other characters in the series has been fantastic. For those reasons alone, I'm fine with leaving her dead.
So, in that vein, I'm perfectly happy with Janeway's fate. I thought she had a fittingly tragic end - hey, it was better than having a bridge fall on her - and the material it's given the other characters in the series has been fantastic. For those reasons alone, I'm fine with leaving her dead.
This. This exact thing.
Full disclosure: I never liked Janeway. Didn't like the actress, didn't like the character, and I wasn't a big fan of Voyager itself, although I did watch it for a long time because I thought it had an awful lot of promise.
When Janeway died in Before Dishonor, I was kind of nonplussed. As I said, I had no attachment to the character and very little to the series she came from; my main thought about her death was that I didn't think too much of the book she died in (but that's a whole 'nother thread), and sort of briefly wondering if they were going to continue doing Voyager books and what they would be like.
I kept an eye on these boards, and when talk of Full Circle and Unworthy started percolating, my interest was piqued. I bought Full Circle, read it, and was really surprised by how much I found myself enjoying a Voyager novel. It reminded me of many of the things I liked about other "non-screen" Trek writing, be it books like Articles of the Federation and A Singular Destiny or just the post-relaunch Deep Space Nine stuff. Moreover, I found that I really responded to the way Kirsten Beyer wrote Janeway, and I remember saying that if Janeway had always been written that well, I might have liked her more (and there was, for me, the added bonus of not having to watch an actress I don't like in the part).
I guess what I'm saying in this long, rambling and unfocused fashion is that I don't have a real emotional attachment to Janeway alive or dead; what I want are Voyager books that are as well-written, in terms of both story and character, as Kristen Beyer's two books thus far. If one of those characters is a version of Janeway who's used as well as she was in Full Circle, then sure, yeah, whatever. I do think that there's no reason to undo a character death unless there's a compelling reason, storywise, to do so; and I'm not sure that "because we want more with this character" constitutes a compelling reason.
But then again, what do I know?
Have you ever read "The Captain's Table: Fire Ship" by Diane Carey? It's a Solo Janeway story, essentially a long adventure that happened - I guess - between the canonical episodes where she changed hairstyle from that "bun of steel" to the shorter, softer style.
But it remains my favourite VOY in-series book. Great new alien tech and cool to see Janeway working her way up the pecking order from lowly tile-scrubber in the bowels of a spaceship to demonstrating her leadership skills.
Let's start with this bit from the end of AuntKate's post:
And now back to the beginning of the stuff AuntKate quoted:
I trimmed out the middle part when I said what I mean by that, because it's just upstream a little way. Notice?
Back to AuntKate:
Take all the umbrage you want. This is the Internet, umbrage is the ultimate renewable resource online. But I never said a damn thing about "real" Star Trek fans. Snakespeare did.
And I got my first Trek book circa 1971 or '72 (Mission to Horatius). I have somewhere around a thousand or more Star Trek books -- in fact, I have most of the books covered on my Star Trek books website. And a couple hundred fanzines, a few hundred comics, a crapload of VHS tapes and DVDs and soundtrack LPs and CDs...
The one constant in Star Trek has been change. Characters develop or die or arrive, wars start and end, enemies become friends, and every so often we get a whole new bunch of characters in a whole new series. The books -- and I include the DS9 relaunch, the Voyager relaunch, New Frontier, Vanguard, Titan, etc -- are completely and entirely true to the spirit of change that is present through the decades of Star Trek.
And now back to the beginning of the stuff AuntKate quoted:
I trimmed out the middle part when I said what I mean by that, because it's just upstream a little way. Notice?
Back to AuntKate:
Okay, I've decided to take umbrage with this.
Take all the umbrage you want. This is the Internet, umbrage is the ultimate renewable resource online. But I never said a damn thing about "real" Star Trek fans. Snakespeare did.
A lot of us enjoy those kinds of stories, and we have hundreds of them on DVD. SOme of us have hundreds of books, comics, and fanzines of that kind of story. A lot of us still like the occasional book of that kind. But the success of the New Frontier books, the DS9 relaunch books, and Vanguard pretty strongly suggests that there's also a lot of people who like it when the books do things that only the books can do.
And I got my first Trek book circa 1971 or '72 (Mission to Horatius). I have somewhere around a thousand or more Star Trek books -- in fact, I have most of the books covered on my Star Trek books website. And a couple hundred fanzines, a few hundred comics, a crapload of VHS tapes and DVDs and soundtrack LPs and CDs...
I'm not being confrontational here, but I really don't understand this. Some of the earliest episodes of TOS are practically ensemble dramas, then later the show became primarily about Kirk and Spock, and then came the movies, which had a very different feel from the TV series. The Jean-Luc Picard of "Encounter at Farpoint" is barely recognizable as the Picard of Nemesis. There's Voyager with untrustworthy Tom Paris, spiritual Chakotay, goofy Neelix, sweet Kes, or Voyager with Seven of Nine and an otherwise generally happy and unified bunch of people. And DS9... no other Trek series went through the kinds of changes that show went through. Even Enterprise went from two seasons of aimlessness to a season-long Xindi arc to a season of TOS-prequel mini-arcs.
The one constant in Star Trek has been change. Characters develop or die or arrive, wars start and end, enemies become friends, and every so often we get a whole new bunch of characters in a whole new series. The books -- and I include the DS9 relaunch, the Voyager relaunch, New Frontier, Vanguard, Titan, etc -- are completely and entirely true to the spirit of change that is present through the decades of Star Trek.
Like I said: I never said anything about "real" fans. As for the "basics," change is one of the basics.
^^ I hope you feel the same way about change when Admiral Janeway returns from the Q Continuum.
But, to follow up on that, Trek novels are best (IMHO) when they follow the tried-and-true format, and, since the reset button is a time-honored element of Trek, I see no reason to toss it out completely. I don't understand why this is the place that we have to draw the line in the sand. Bring her back. Most fans would gladly read about her return and many would celebrate.
If some readers prefer a different pattern to their novels, there are plenty out there to read. Trek novels have traditionally had an expected structure that has served it well, similar to the expected structure of a mystery or romance. And before you turn your nose up at such a comparison, remember that those types of novels sell better than any other in the market today.
Why try to make Trek into something it isn't? Why deviate completely from the structure and patterns that have been successful for the franchise for over thirty years? Has this Relaunch done so well that it justifies forgetting about the former successful plot structures and characters? Isn't there room for a little of both?
I'm not against change, but I don't believe in arbitrary change--and I think it is an especially bad idea when you are dealing with a fan base. Look at "New Coke," if you have doubts. The old Coke fans didn't buy new Coke and a lot never returned to the fold when the "original recipe" returned.
This isn't "Literature" with a capital "L," folks. This is scifi fiction, escapist fiction at its best, IMHO. These books are for fast consumption, not for lasting popularity and dozens of reprints. Let's not try to make Trek novels into something they aren't.
But, to follow up on that, Trek novels are best (IMHO) when they follow the tried-and-true format, and, since the reset button is a time-honored element of Trek, I see no reason to toss it out completely. I don't understand why this is the place that we have to draw the line in the sand. Bring her back. Most fans would gladly read about her return and many would celebrate.
If some readers prefer a different pattern to their novels, there are plenty out there to read. Trek novels have traditionally had an expected structure that has served it well, similar to the expected structure of a mystery or romance. And before you turn your nose up at such a comparison, remember that those types of novels sell better than any other in the market today.
Why try to make Trek into something it isn't? Why deviate completely from the structure and patterns that have been successful for the franchise for over thirty years? Has this Relaunch done so well that it justifies forgetting about the former successful plot structures and characters? Isn't there room for a little of both?
I'm not against change, but I don't believe in arbitrary change--and I think it is an especially bad idea when you are dealing with a fan base. Look at "New Coke," if you have doubts. The old Coke fans didn't buy new Coke and a lot never returned to the fold when the "original recipe" returned.
This isn't "Literature" with a capital "L," folks. This is scifi fiction, escapist fiction at its best, IMHO. These books are for fast consumption, not for lasting popularity and dozens of reprints. Let's not try to make Trek novels into something they aren't.
^ I take issue with the argument that Trek novels shouldn't strive to be better than throwaway standalones. I happen to re-read old Trek novels fairly frequently.
Some of the early Star Wars novels have been reprinted dozens of times; they had fairly lasting popularity. Why is that off limits for Star Trek, in your opinion?
Some of the early Star Wars novels have been reprinted dozens of times; they had fairly lasting popularity. Why is that off limits for Star Trek, in your opinion?
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