Should the Terran Empire have never existed?

[stormtrooper117]

Think about it, Zephram Cochran or whoever only flies the Phoenix on time because Riker told him to. Riker from the future. And in both universes first contact with the Vulcans was the reason we (humanity) got where we were...

But around the time of TNG/DS9, the Empire was defeated and humans were made a slave race, which means most of the Enterprise D/E crew would have been enslaved/dead...

 

[apenpaap]

If the Borg are mirrored too, it means they are probably still far away in the delta quadrant in the MU, being really nice and stuff. So in the MU, they wouldn't travel to 2063, so there wouldn't be any need for an ISS Enterprise-E to follow them.

 

[cwl]

I find it hard to believe that Earth formed the Terran Empire. it afterall was technologically backwards when it encountered other species.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Think about it, Zephram Cochran or whoever only flies the Phoenix on time because Riker told him to.

The only reason Riker needed to tell him to, is because of the Borg attack. Perhaps in the mirror universe, there was no Borg attack?

I find it hard to believe that Earth formed the Terran Empire.

Uh, it's called the TERRAN Empire for a reason, you know...

it afterall was technologically backwards when it encountered other species.

And stole whatever technology it needed from those species. We all saw that.

 

[Jaespol]

I don't think First Contact was an example of one of those self fulfilling parodoxes or whatever they were called. Zefram Cochrane did originally manage to launch the ship himself, there's no suggestion he was only ever able to do it because of a borg attack and the Enterprise coming.

 

[cwl]

Think about it, Zephram Cochran or whoever only flies the Phoenix on time because Riker told him to.

The only reason Riker needed to tell him to, is because of the Borg attack. Perhaps in the mirror universe, there was no Borg attack?

I find it hard to believe that Earth formed the Terran Empire.

Uh, it's called the TERRAN Empire for a reason, you know...

it afterall was technologically backwards when it encountered other species.

And stole whatever technology it needed from those species. We all saw that.

if a stealth fighter were to go back in time & crash land in the 19th century. do you think the victorians would be able to duplicate 21st century technology?

 

[LutherSloan]

Think about it, Zephram Cochran or whoever only flies the Phoenix on time because Riker told him to.

The only reason Riker needed to tell him to, is because of the Borg attack. Perhaps in the mirror universe, there was no Borg attack?



Uh, it's called the TERRAN Empire for a reason, you know...

it afterall was technologically backwards when it encountered other species.

And stole whatever technology it needed from those species. We all saw that.

if a stealth fighter were to go back in time & crash land in the 19th century. do you think the victorians would be able to duplicate 21st century technology?

That's not really an applicable example. At the time of first contact, humanity had warp capability. I doubt that the Vulcan technology on the scout ship was THAT hard to figure out for them.

 

[cwl]

The only reason Riker needed to tell him to, is because of the Borg attack. Perhaps in the mirror universe, there was no Borg attack?



Uh, it's called the TERRAN Empire for a reason, you know...

And stole whatever technology it needed from those species. We all saw that.

if a stealth fighter were to go back in time & crash land in the 19th century. do you think the victorians would be able to duplicate 21st century technology?

That's not really an applicable example. At the time of first contact, humanity had warp capability. I doubt that the Vulcan technology on the scout ship was THAT hard to figure out for them.

how about a F35 being shipped back to the 1930s? the period when the jet engine was developed?

no doubt such technology would be of great use and would really move things along but that is it.

in the mirror universe cochrane makes his warp engine, a vulcan scout ship lands, the vulcan is killed & the ship taken with the technology presumably used to build an interstellar empire.

yes like the other scenario it would be of great benefit to terran technological advances- but would it enable the terrans to build an interstellar fleet big enough & advanced enough to conquer the worlds of other long established spacetravelling races?

NO. it would take decades to develop a reasonably sized fleet, and what about the vulcan language? how could they understand that? what about metals & materials not found on earth?

its not plausible.

 

[Silversmok3]

if a stealth fighter were to go back in time & crash land in the 19th century. do you think the victorians would be able to duplicate 21st century technology?

That's not really an applicable example. At the time of first contact, humanity had warp capability. I doubt that the Vulcan technology on the scout ship was THAT hard to figure out for them.

how about a F35 being shipped back to the 1930s? the period when the jet engine was developed?

no doubt such technology would be of great use and would really move things along but that is it.

in the mirror universe cochrane makes his warp engine, a vulcan scout ship lands, the vulcan is killed & the ship taken with the technology presumably used to build an interstellar empire.

yes like the other scenario it would be of great benefit to terran technological advances- but would it enable the terrans to build an interstellar fleet big enough & advanced enough to conquer the worlds of other long established spacetravelling races?

NO. it would take decades to develop a reasonably sized fleet, and what about the vulcan language? how could they understand that? what about metals & materials not found on earth?

its not plausible.

Well, look at the secret cold war program the US had to understand MiG fighter jets.Whenever one defected to the West back then, the plane had to be flown to area 51 and dissasembled for study.Keep in mind, everything from the open/close label to the emergency brake were labelled in Russian, and we still took the time to understand it.


In any case, the Mirror universe wouldn't exist for a different reason-there'd be no stability. In an atmosphere where you advance via assasination, thered be no order. It would be like early Pakistan where leaders died every 3-4 years because of coups, assasinations, and the like. There'd be no order or chain of command simply because no one would have a reason to follow it -why obey an order when you can just vaporize your superior and take his job?

 

[cwl]

B29's landed in the USSR during WW2 and the Russians built carbon copies.

Soviet planes defected to the West & were stripped apart- yes.

we must however remember the technological capabilities over both superpowers were broadly similar & the types of resources available too.

the USSR had many English speakers. the USA had many Russian speakers.

your stability arguement is a good one- but leaving that aside I think I've made my point.

it would take many decades for the Terran Empire to build a reasonably sized starfleet- all at the same time having to keep up with technological advances & becoming familiar with interstellar warfare.

how many ships would starfleet need, dozens? hundreds? maybe thousands.
they would need numerous starbases & off-world colonies.

 

[apenpaap]

Perhaps they had help from within. If the Vulcans had slaves or a caste system or something like that (It's the Mirror Universe, after all), they may have seen Terrans as their liberators and rose up against their suppressors. The Andorians or Tellarites may have been at war with the Vulcans and thought: Hey, that cute little planet is at war with them too, let's give them a lot of technology and stuff to help ur allies.

 

[cwl]

its possible but improbable.

the amount of resources to build & maintain such a fleet in such a time frame would require MASSIVE assistance.

 

[Praetor]

So... am I the only one that thinks Cochrane's flight was a temporal paradox in the regular universe, and not in the mirror universe, and right there we have some differences?

 

[Thor Damar]

So... am I the only one that thinks Cochrane's flight was a temporal paradox in the regular universe, and not in the mirror universe, and right there we have some differences?

Interesting, why do you say that? I find your views intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[Praetor]

So... am I the only one that thinks Cochrane's flight was a temporal paradox in the regular universe, and not in the mirror universe, and right there we have some differences?

Interesting, why do you say that? I find your views intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Well, here's my thinking:

In "our" Trekverse, Cochrane's warp flight was said to be a part of a "pogo paradox" where an effort to prevent a past event actually causes said event. (VGR's "Relativity.") Whether you want to believe it is or not is irrelevant; Seven said it on screen. We might choose to interpret that her view of the events were Borgfacts-based; OTOH, Lt. Ducane of the Relativity didn't correct her either. Now, there are varied ways to interpret this. Cochrane might have been able to actually accomplish the flight and make First Contact on his own; then again, he might not. Either way, the way "our" universe records it happening and the way it "actually" happened are different.

There's no 24th century Enterprise to travel back in time in the mirror universe. DS9's mirror eps pretty clearly establishes no Starfleet and no Enterprise. (And no Lieutenant Yar, and no vaccine! ) Presumably, the Enterprise-D never existed either, and was never fled into the path of that cube by Q in 2365.

Cochrane's warp flight still happened in the mirror universe, under visually similar circumstances, although apparently without a Borg attack or the presence of the Enterprise-E since in the mirror universe there was no Enterprise-E. Yet, he still did it and presumably "their" history recorded the actual specifics the same was as "ours" did, sans Riker and LaForge. And then, of course, Cochrane and company raided the Vulcan ship.

Presumably, there was no Borg debris in the mirror universe from the Queen's sphere to be discovered to attempt to contact their past Delta Quadrant counterparts. So in the MU, "Regeneration" never happened and the mirror Borg may have never been interested in travelling to the Alpha Quadrant in the first place.

So in summary:

1. In both universes, Zefram Cochrane launches his Phoenix test ship from Bozeman, Montana in April 2063.
2. Both histories record Cochrane making the warp flight the same way and attracting the attention of the Vulcans
3. In "our" history Cochrane had help.
4. In "their" history Cochrane did not have help.

I guess the big question is: could "our" Cochrane have launched his ship without Borg interference and the Enterprise's help? If so, there are no differences. If not, there are already fundamental differences in the two universes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IMHO, the regular universe Cochrane needed help from the future because of the Borg attack. The 'colony' where he worked was so devastated that they needed help from Picard and company to make the flight. There was never a timeline in the RU where they did not.

In the MU, however, without any Borg attack, Cochrane and his people were indeed able to do it on their own.

 

[Jaespol]

So... am I the only one that thinks Cochrane's flight was a temporal paradox in the regular universe, and not in the mirror universe, and right there we have some differences?

No there's nothing to suggest that.

 

[JTK2099]

The way I see it is the Terran Empire of Archer's time had a very small fleet just like the Federation of the 22nd century. Perhaps just the I.S.S. Columiba and Enterprise. The acquisition of the U.S.S. Defiant and it's advanced technology is what gives the empire the edge it needs to rise to a significant level of power in the quadrant. But, the seends of it's downfall are already present in T'Pol's warning that it cannot last.

From what we have seen, First Contact with the Vulcans occurs without any interference from the Borg or assistance from the Enterprise in the Mirror Universe.

 

[Praetor]

So... am I the only one that thinks Cochrane's flight was a temporal paradox in the regular universe, and not in the mirror universe, and right there we have some differences?

No there's nothing to suggest that.

Except that Seven of Nine explicitly says it was a predestination paradox in Relativity, requiring the Enterprise-E's presence to "complete" and there is no Enterprise-E in the mirror universe.

 

[JTK2099]

What if Seven of Nine, and more specifically The Borg, were wrong? It is pretty self-serving on their part to claim that they were integral to Cochrane's flight. Kind of like Chekov always claiming everything was created by the Russians.