Because Khan's in it, wants revenge, and there's a death scene involving Kirk, Spock, and them being separated by a pane of glass. Those elements alone must be what makes fans immediately call "remake" and "cop out." I can't begin to count how many times I've read the phrase, "They copied the death scene from The Wrath of Khan, line by line." Which, come on. Any fan worth their mettle should know the death scene by heart at this point and can easily tell you that no, they did not copy the scene.They didn't remake TWOK. I don't know how anyone that saw both movies can say that!
Should the next Star Trek movie have a lower budget?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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No one does 'KHHAAAAAAAAN' better than The Shat.... No one.
$362 million worldwide from a $100 million budget. Not at the level of its successors, but I daresay we'd be pretty pleased with that for a Trek film.
Kirk gets a wholly-deserved dressing down from his mentor and father figure, loses his command, then has it restored as part of a manipulation into being the instrument of a high-level Starfleet conspiracy to spark a war with the Klingons - and in doing so unwittingly assist in the murder of 72 people - said conspirators having already exploited a genetically engineered war criminal.
Even putting aside the allusions to modern-day issues, that's pretty damn dark for a Trek film (not to mention nothing like the WoK I remember), and that sharp change in tone and the presentation of the darker side of Starfleet is very much ambitious and risky.
The film certainly had its flaws, but I admire that aspect.
Everyone's been saying their piece about the post-9/11 US ever since the immediate aftermath of 9/11. STID did not break any new ground on the matter, hell some of this stuff has even been covered in previous Trek movies or series. If anything, it came off more as generic action movie tropes than it did social commentary.
Okay, so there's no elderly Chinese guy, but otherwise the scene really is a carbon copy of Spock's death, just with Kirk and Spock role reversed. Hell, I remember first seeing the scene play out in theatres, each time a similarity popped up I said "are they seriously doing this?" and kept repeating that after each subsequent similarity. Then when Spock did the "KHAN!!!" scream I groaned and said "fuck off." The scenes were so similar that when Spock arrived in the engineering room, I actually was expecting to see him bump into the elderly Chinese guy.
When you put it that way, there are also elements of TUC there. Considering how much Trek keeps mining Nick Meyer's work, I guess it's no wonder they hired him for Discovery.
Tim Burton's Planet Of The Apes (2001) reboot film's success was relative to Star Trek Beyond's current box office.
Followed extremely successful second reboot films:
- Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes (2011)
- Dawn Of The Planet Of The Apes (2014)
Maybe Star Trek 4 {14} needs to be a second reboot of the film franchise to draw a wider audience and box office. Clean slate again with the same cast as WOK was from TMP.
I don't think that another reboot is gonna work, just a decent story, try another angle.
Look at the Spiderman movies, 3 reboots in 10 years.
Look at the Spiderman movies, 3 reboots in 10 years.
That's a lot of very specific elements really isn't it? Oh and the death occurred getting the warp core to work, thus saving the ship, someone shouted KHAAAN
, how much else needs to be NEARLY lifted verbatim before the alarm bells ring?
Agree, that is what I mean by another reboot. The changes from TMP to WOK with the same cast as a example.
Ok but than it isn't an reboot right?
True. I was using it as Meyer approached WOK ignoring TMP. An actual reboot would be new cast, new direction.
I just hope that Star Trek 4 {14} surprises us and attracts new audiences as did the latest POTA films.
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Reboot Star Trek 4 - The Revenge of the redshirts
Keep in mind that's around $493 million with inflation, which is well ahead of Beyond, and on a substantially lower budget.
Also, Burton's film didn't get a release in China. That was a big part of Beyond's box office, as it was in the later Planet of the Apes films (the 2014 film made over $100 million from China).
A LOT more than that. Is there a potentially dangerous world creating device? Was Khan marooned on a planet? Was Khan spouting Moby Dick every five minutes?That's a lot of very specific elements really isn't it? Oh and the death occurred getting the warp core to work, thus saving the ship, someone shouted KHAAAN
It's SIMILAR. But it is NOT LINE BY LINE.
Evidently you and I differ greatly on our view of what constitutes creativity. It isn't line by line, but the deliberate and blatant lifting from is heavy handed and overdone. It goes WAY beyond paying tribute.
The point of the scene (Spock's realisation of the worth of Kirk's friendship vs Kirk paying the price for cheating death himself), how they got there and where they went after are entirely different.
That's the death scene. I make no excuses for the scream afterward. That was stupid.
That's the death scene. I make no excuses for the scream afterward. That was stupid.
Chris Hemsworth returning for ‘Star Trek 4’. Nonsense! I think he is weak actor.
Why can not we see a Federation x Klingon conflict? Not a large-scale war, but fighting over a strategic planet. A smart villain with a real purpose. I am tired of watching villian with emotional problem.
Why can not we see a Federation x Klingon conflict? Not a large-scale war, but fighting over a strategic planet. A smart villain with a real purpose. I am tired of watching villian with emotional problem.
Really? Now you're getting after me for exaggerating? Well, of course I exaggerate the matter, as has been indicated to me before this forum would be a dull and dry place if all we did was post facts and opinions. Of course there's going to be exaggerations, and of course there's going to be at times over the top misrepresentations, because this is an internet forum where we come to discuss entertainment and to be entertained.
It is not hard to parse through the exaggerations and misrepresentations to get to the truth of the matter, and the truth of the matter is that Kirk's death scene is very similar to Spock's death scene in TWOK. As has been indicated above, it goes way beyond simple tributes and homages. You got Spock being told "I think you'd better get down here" followed by a montage of Spock running though the corridors to engineering, Kirk can't be removed from the chamber because it'll "flood the whole compartment." It doesn't help matters that during the scene, Kirk tells Spock "you would do the same" which to serves as a way of reminding the audience of the scene in TWOK. In fact, that's pretty much what I thought of it as every time I saw the scene until very recently when I realized he could also have been mentioning the fact that Spock would have also sacrificed his life for his ship and crew.
The scene is so similar that when I first saw the movie it completely took me out of the movie and was distracting enough I couldn't really get into the movie again afterwards. The scene is obviously inspired by the scene in TWOK, the copious similarities are there intentionally. So yeah, if someone wants to say it's line by line, I don't see the need to contradict them, because you know what, for all its similarities it might as well be.
I agree with that point. Quinto's acting was on point for almost the entire scene, but when he screamed, it was really off. Did he have to scream Khan's name? What's wrong with an inarticulate scream of unbridled rage?
I agree with every point, except for the conclusion. It didn't take me out of the movie but enhanced my emotion of the scene.
I know it's different for everyone, but I will not complain about them using that scene, any more than Khan or Chang using Shakespeare takes away from their characters. It feels very powerful because its just so in character for them.
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