Should the Borg be the villain in Trek 3?

[CaptainMurdock]

No. Borg are a 24 Century villain. Trek 3 doesn't need a villain. It needs an alien threat or not even a threat at all. I want a fun lighthearted adventure for the crew. No more Giant ships, no more stopping off at Earth, No more KHAAAAAAN. Just Kirk and company on a grand new adventure exploring Space, the unknown.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Im kind of hoping they up the horror/dread/scares into the next Trek...make it really frightening and add abit of body gore etc (they can get away with quite abit in PG13 now)...leaning more towards the sense of dread in TNG Conspiracy (which had a chest burst straight out of Alien and an exploding head like in Scanners!! How did they get away with that!?), and all the early Borg eps and First Contact (although that was very action orientated like 'Aliens'). And TWOK certainly had an eerie atmosphere full of dread with elements of a vast, darker universe at play - almost as dark as the RScott Alien verse (it also had a certain Scanners/Cronenberg feel with the bugs, disintegration killings etc)

there was some horror elements in ST09/STID but not too much (e.g. the opening of ST09 with the kelvin alone in deep space coming across a gigantic monster of a ship and no one around to help, stranded on Delta Vega, Neros mind bugs, Khan going into full on Khan mode on the Vengence) - it was mainly action . so maybe bring in some horror for ST3 - after all the original series had an eerie, uncanny vibe not a million light years from 'The Twilight Zone' - The Enterprise charting a shadow haunted universe that hid some deeply strange and terryfying things. maybe return a little of that supernatural awe and dread to the next film

maybe the borg would be the best bet for that

 

[anotherdemon]

Please no. Can't we just have First Contact and be happy with that?

 

[Khan 2.0]

That was said about TWOK

 

[BillJ]

Please no. Can't we just have First Contact and be happy with that?

First Contact will be twenty years old by the time Star Trek 3 comes out. There is likely a large portion of the movie audience that have never even seen it.

 

[Khan 2.0]

as it gets closer to the movie im having serious doubts about the borg showing up (beyond some teaser easter egg for the 4th film) - its the 50th anniversary of TOS (not TNG), we're bound to run into the Klingons...

 

[allstar77]

No. Borg are a 24 Century villain. Trek 3 doesn't need a villain. It needs an alien threat or not even a threat at all. I want a fun lighthearted adventure for the crew. No more Giant ships, no more stopping off at Earth, No more KHAAAAAAN. Just Kirk and company on a grand new adventure exploring Space, the unknown.

Tell that to Archer (who's been plugged in both movies.

The Borg used to be a threat until VOY reduced them to villain of the week status. If the Borg come back as a zombi-like threat, I'll buy it. But if we're going to have nuKirk logging lips trying to short circuit the Queen, I'll pass.

I'd like to see the Borg returned to frightening threat they were in Q2.

 

[Robert_T_April]

i think they should take no chances and do the borg for ST3 in 2016 (Star Treks Skyfall)

-Although the borg have been done to death on TNG (& VOY/ENT) and in a prior film, they are firmly a TNG era villain and we have never seen Kirk and Co have anything to do with them (bar a comic in the Star Trek Manga series and Shatners 'The Return'). Fans would obviously be intrigued with how Kirk, Spock would deal with the borg threat (almost a TOS vs TNG/Kirk v Picard thing going down)

-post Q Who/BOBW part 1 (when the borg were at their most menacing) they always seemed to have a spokesperson which lessened their impact somewhat so while initially it would seem they are treading old ground it would actually be fresh if it was a more alien non Locutus/Lore/Queen led borg vs Kirk and Spock. (so it would really be a remake of Q Who but with TOS characters sans Q)

-the budget would be in the $150-200m range (First Contact = $45m in 1996) so we could see a totally new version of the borg with todays FX. a far more frightening interpretation more Ridley Scott/HR Giger style pushing the boundaries of the PG13 rating and leaning more toward horror Sci Fi - Star Trek does Aliens/Terminator (like FC but even more so)

-We havent seen the origin of the borg yet or the borg homeworld so maybe the origins could be explored abit but still keep it vague/lots of mystery alien-ness (like Ridley Scott did with Prometheus). could Vger even be involved? (ok it wasnt too popular but TMP was the biggest box office Trek movie before STID & Vger appears in the Nero comics and im sure there was a novel that ties Vger into the origin of the borg - Shatners The Return? )

-There was a hint of the borg in ST09 - Neros ship, ok that was just a reference in Countdown but the design of the interior and green hues of the stations certainly had me thinking borg technology (could the borg of the 23rd century have detected the narada while it was about and be on their way to take over the federation? Or Could its remains have appeared in the delta quadrant? Which could also account for any appearance differences - borg of 23rd century could look different to TNG era borg) plus B Orci & AK refer to Best of Both Worlds on the final page of CD

-Robotics/cybernetic type aliens are in vogue thanks to the continuing installments of Transformers. U can see its influence on many recent SF films post 2007 - Terminator 4 (transformer like terminators designed to appeal to the PG13 crowd), Trek09 (neros ship), Cowboys/Aliens, Battleship, Skyline, Avengers, Pacific Rim, MOS etc

-The borg also have a strong zombie vibe - zombies are bigger than ever now due to Walking Dead and WWZ

-The studio will want to capitalise on the popularity of Trek to ensure MAXIMUM box office - going with a new interpretation of a previously established villain like Khan in STID will certainly help to do that (although they should publicise the villain the next time instead of hiding it). Paramount had big box office success with First Contact, far more so than any of the other TNG films (or Trek V and VI for that matter)...the main reason behind its success was The Borg...and Best Of Both Worlds part 1 is regarded as TNGs finest hour (next to Yesterdays Enterprise) and just about changed American dramatic television (the season cliffhanger)

-both Trek09/STID have a kind of 'greatest hits' of Trek thing going on (abit like the Brosnan Bond films) and are focusing on the more popular villians in Trekdom as opposed to anything lesser know or totally new. the Borg are one of the most popular Trek villians (along with Khan, Klingons and Romulans)..and certainly the most popular villains of the TNG era Trek (i dont believe we'll see any of the lesser know Trek villians like Cardassians, Breen or even Andorians or Gorns take centre stage in any sequels - beyond a cameo or supporting part)

-The Klingons, while a natural villain for the 3rd movie after their cameo/foreshadowing in STID (and esp one for the 50th ann - like they were for the 25th ann Trek VI), have over the years become seen as more of an ally to the federation/Starfleet due to TNG (plus the 4 TNG films with worf, not to mention Trek VI which we saw the federation and the klingon empire battle it out for peace) so it may be difficult having them go back to full on sole villains. (which might have to be another political style film like VI). Might be best if they remain an uneasy threat in the background or even have the film start with a Federation/Klingon war - but then the klingons have to team up with the federation to fight the borg (thus fast tracking their alliance a good 30 years early and foreshadowing the eventual peace in TNG). Anyway didnt Kirk and Co prevent a federation/klingon war in STID? (which was similar to VI). plus i dont think they would be as interesting and as scary a threat as the borg - esp when you take into account there may not be a forth film with the nu Cast (the cast becoming more difficult to secure, the idea of a trilogy wrapping up the movie series for a few years while trek goes back to tv, in which case a 4th film way down the line would probably feature a new cast/new era) so if you asked any fan or even a person with a vague knowledge of Trek - 'who would you rather have as villains for the next (and possibly final) film - the klingons or the borg?' i think most would say 'borg.' Also the klingons have featured alot in the previous films (main villains in III and VI but also feature heavily in V and VII)

-i imagine something special will be done for the 50th anniversary in regard to Treks history (like Skyfall/Dr Who 50ths) so perhaps something involing the borg messing about with time travel/alternate realities could be a possibilty? (the borg know about/have dealt with timetravel/alternate realities) maybe even something involving the nu Crew with Picard and the TNG (&7of9) 'Days of Futures Past/Yesterdays Enterprise' style? (the YE two crews thing hasnt been done on the big screen yet - and the team up thing is all the rage now - Avengers/Batman vs Superman) - It will have been 14 years since Nemesis, enough time to heal the wounds and have fans anticipating some TNG again! (2016 will also be the 20th anniversary of FC). So a kind of all encompassing Trek film for the anniversary...maybe working in Nimoy again, and Shatner finally, and maybe even somehow concluding the JJverse as a self contained trilogy (like TDK trilogy)

NO, THE BORG SHOULD IN NO WAY BE AFFILIATED WITH THIS STORY ARC!

I don't get the fascination...?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

I want a fun lighthearted adventure for the crew. No more Giant ships, no more stopping off at Earth, No more KHAAAAAAN. Just Kirk and company on a grand new adventure exploring Space, the unknown.

Cerebral exploration of deep space only really work in the episodic TV / Netflix format where they can afford to do it. Also, have you ever wondered why the following are always topping the list of favorite episodes: Doomsday Machine, Best of Both Worlds, Yesterday's Enterprise, All Good Things, etc... What do they have in common? What storyline do you think would make for a better once-off motion picture? (Hint: not intellectual space exploration).

 

[johnjm22]

If ST3 features the Borg, it seems inevitable to me that the resulting story would involve yet another enemy mega-ship. Making it the 4th straight Trek movie to do so. No thanks to that.

Can we please just have a well written original story without a bunch of re-ashes or fanboy wanks?

Considering that Orci is running the show my hopes aren't exactly high.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

I want a fun lighthearted adventure for the crew. No more Giant ships, no more stopping off at Earth, No more KHAAAAAAN. Just Kirk and company on a grand new adventure exploring Space, the unknown.

Cerebral exploration of deep space only really work in the episodic TV / Netflix format where they can afford to do it. Also, have you ever wondered why the following are always topping the list of favorite episodes: Doomsday Machine, Best of Both Worlds, Yesterday's Enterprise, All Good Things, etc... What do they have in common? What storyline do you think would make for a better once-off motion picture? (Hint: not intellectual space exploration).

Fun adventure doesn't have to be slow and tedious. It can fit the length. It also doesn't have to lack action. While not great, Star Trek V proved it could be done. With good writing we could have a great Adventure film. Star Trek IV didn't have a villain so to speak, Nu Trek 3 doesn't and shouldn't need one either. It just needs some good writing that doesn't rely on classic Trek references or tropes to get it's point across let alone villains from the spinoff series introduced 100 years after TOS. I was one who didn't want to see Khan in STID.

 

[xavier]

I would not mind as long as the story is epic and not rushed.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

If they've got a good story featuring the Borg, I'm all for it.

You know, I was all "gah, Khan is a moron" before STID, but I ended up liking it...even though I would've preferred them just creating an original villain from scratch, but whatever. The Borg have been terribly overused, but if something entertaining comes out of rebooting them, I'm cool with it.

However (and that's a big whatever), I'd rather they just think up something new. Wasn't that the whole point of creating a parallel dimension? That the movies didn't have to get crushed by thousand tons of canon?

 

[BillJ]

However (and that's a big whatever), I'd rather they just think up something new. Wasn't that the whole point of creating a parallel dimension? That the movies didn't have to get crushed by thousand tons of canon?

Yes. But I think people confuse that with thinking they should throw away everything that has been built over the years. It would obviously be problematic from a continuity POV to do a Kirk/Enterprise vs. the Borg story in the Prime Universe.

No such restraints exist in the new universe.

When DC Comics did "Crisis on Infinite Earths", they freed creators to come up with new angles for toys that were already in the toy box. They didn't throw away Lex Luthor or the Joker.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I agree: you don't have to throw established characters away, of course. Like I said, if they make an enjoyable movie, I'll enjoy it (I mean, I'll watch it regardless) - and I liked how they made Khan actually smart this time around (imo). But going into a ST movie and genuinely not knowing what to expect would be kind of awesome. They do put a lot of little canon details into the films, anyway.

 

[BillJ]

I agree: you don't have to throw established characters away, of course. Like I said, if they make an enjoyable movie, I'll enjoy it (I mean, I'll watch it regardless) - and I liked how they made Khan actually smart this time around (imo). But going into a ST movie and genuinely not knowing what to expect would be kind of awesome. They do put a lot of little canon details into the films, anyway.

I understand where many folks are coming from not wanting the Borg in the next movie. But from my perspective, being a fan for nearly forty years, there aren't too many things that they can do that I haven't seen an episode of or read a novel or comic about and Kirk/Spock (in their primes) vs. the Borg is one that I haven't seen or read before. It is a story that simply couldn't be done before the timeline split. It is one of the few ideas that actually seems big enough for a 50th Anniversary celebration.

New villains are okay. But I've probably seen a couple hundred episodes with new villains and read another hundred novels.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Yeah, well, looking at it like that, I think you're right. What I really want is an antagonist who is a Magnificent Bastard (tm), or - if it has to be the Borg because everyone knows them - make them scary and creepy as all hell. But no more Khan-esque dudes trying to fuck up Earth, at least this once.

 

[Franklin]

In my opinion, TOS was at its best when it was going up against an antagonist with whom Kirk and Spock could match wits. That's what I'd like to see, so that rules out the Borg for me.

The soul-less hive mentality of the Borg was great because they were new to Trek canon. They were the "anti-Trek" villain. A nightmare to a society that lives by individualism and reason, and values diversity. But in FC, the creation of the Borg queen reduced the Borg to mindless minions of the queen's desires. All of a sudden, there was a focus where there hadn't been one. An "I" to the "we." The uniqueness of the Borg were lost. It wasn't nearly as terrifying as when they were thought of as a relentless horde of locusts with no focus, no reason, and no motivation other than spreading themselves out as far as they could.

Now, could all that made the Borg so terrifying be recaptured in a two hour movie and give our heroes proper service? I dunno. Whatever exposition an uniformed audience needed to know about the Borg in FC came from Picard's backstory and offhand remarks made by those who had dealt with them, before.

Further, with the Borg as the villain, what's the end game? Are they all destroyed? Or, is it a conflict with a small group of Borg separated from the hive, and they foreshadow an eventual run-in with the entire collective in the future? Would an ending like that be the best way a movie celebrating fifty years of Trek could end? On the realization that Starfleet will have to remilitarize and divert its resources to build ships and weapons systems even more powerful than the Vengeance in order to be ready for the Borg in a few decades? Go out on a dark and foreboding note like that?

 

[Smellmet]

Some good points raised by BillJ and Franklin

 

[BillJ]

Further, with the Borg as the villain, what's the end game? Are they all destroyed? Or, is it a conflict with a small group of Borg separated from the hive, and they foreshadow an eventual run-in with the entire collective in the future? Would an ending like that be the best way a movie celebrating fifty years of Trek could end? On the realization that Starfleet will have to remilitarize and divert its resources to build ships and weapons systems even more powerful than the Vengeance in order to be ready for the Borg in a few decades? Go out on a dark and foreboding note like that?

I don't think the Borg in the Abramsverse need to be so overpowering like they were in the Prime timeline. I think they are ripe for reinvention. You can do a story about technology run amok. Heck, you could plop the Enterprise down in a story about a world fighting the Borg offshoots from "Regeneration". I don't think Starfleet would have to remilitarize from a single instance on a far off world anymore than Starfleet began an instant militarization after "Q, Who?". Sure they did research, but the whole organization didn't flip a switch into being monsters and I think this Starfleet would be even more aware of the perils of overreacting to an outside force after what happened with Admiral Marcus.

You could do some nice character work with a Kirk forced into a decision he simply doesn't want to have to make. The eradication of a world's population (shades of "Operation: Annihilate!"). Is it heavy for a 50th Anniversary? Probably. But I really don't want them trying their hand at comedy, the results haven't been very good so far.