Should "Star Trek IV" have introduced a different NCC-1701-A?

[C.E. Evans]

I guess my problem is Decker's statement in TMP. "This is a completely new Enterprise" or something to that effect. The technology is updated, the shape is different... Heck, Kirk gets LOST trying to find the turbolift.

We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits? To quote/bastardize nuMcCoy, there's nothing left of TOS Enterprise but its bones. If that.

Is there a thread somewhere that discusses the practicality of refitting the TOS design into what we see in TMP? Gotta be...

There was an idea, perhaps first proposed in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, that the Enterprise's refit was originally intended to be just an upgrade to her engines, but it snowballed out of control and the ship wound up being a testbed for several other new systems, prompting pretty much a redesign of the entire vessel. Of the original vessel, the only thing that may be left could be a few internal spaceframe members here and there, IMO.

 

[Dukhat]

We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits?

I for one hated seeing the Miranda class in TNG and especially DS9, for just the reasons you mention. If you're gonna retire the Connies 70 years before, then what's the deal with the Mirandas? Just how are they inherently surperior and longer-lasting than the TMP refit?

And someone mentioned that in TFF it's mentioned that ENT-A is a new ship. Is there a canon source for this?

The only "proof" is Scotty's line about "This new Enterprise...", which still doesn't necessarily mean it's a new build. If I just bought a used car, I wouldn't say to my friends, "Hey, let's all take a ride in my used car." I'd say "new car," because it's new to me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

We see Reliant looking identical inside (due to set reuse, obviously) and take-apart/put-back-together outside. That design lasts through several seasons or DS9 and First Contact. But in TSFS it's time for Enterprise to call it quits?

I for one hated seeing the Miranda class in TNG and especially DS9, for just the reasons you mention. If you're gonna retire the Connies 70 years before, then what's the deal with the Mirandas? Just how are they inherently surperior and longer-lasting than the TMP refit?

I think the Miranda-class was just a versatile design that could be built in large numbers and was fairly easy to both maintain & upgrade over the decades (at least with its internal systems). It kind of became a convenient workhorse design that Starfleet always could rely on, IMO.

Or it may have just been a cannon fodder design.

 

[F. King Daniel]

And someone mentioned that in TFF it's mentioned that ENT-A is a new ship. Is there a canon source for this?

"U.S.S. Enterprise shakedown cruise report: I think this new ship was put together by monkeys..."

 

[urbandefault]

All other arguments aside, Kirk belongs on the bridge of a Constitution class Enterprise. To put him on a different design ship at that point in his career would have been, for lack of a better term, blasphemous.

When the shuttle passed Excelsior bringing the -A into view, you could feel the theater audience smiling. I can't imagine anyone arguing for a different ship 30 years ago.

 

[Dukhat]

"U.S.S. Enterprise shakedown cruise report: I think this new ship was put together by monkeys..."

Which again is hardly irrefutable proof that the ship was a newbuild.

All other arguments aside, Kirk belongs on the bridge of a Constitution class Enterprise. To put him on a different design ship at that point in his career would have been, for lack of a better term, blasphemous.

When the shuttle passed Excelsior bringing the -A into view, you could feel the theater audience smiling. I can't imagine anyone arguing for a different ship 30 years ago.

Exactly. Seeing the TMP Enterprise again was like seeing Spock alive again: Our heroes have returned from the dead. At that time, nothing would have been a more perfect ending than seeing that particular ship, never mind that it wasn't the original NCC-1701.

Unfortunately that awesome final scene literally should have been the final scene. The TOS films should have ended at that point...but, well...they didn't.

 

[Khan 2.0]

Exactly. Seeing the TMP Enterprise again was like seeing Spock alive again: Our heroes have returned from the dead. At that time, nothing would have been a more perfect ending than seeing that particular ship, never mind that it wasn't the original NCC-1701.
Unfortunately that awesome final scene literally should have been the final scene. The TOS films should have ended at that point...but, well...they didn't.

they were probably meant to (esp with TNG about to go ahead) but IV made too much $!

There was an idea, perhaps first proposed in Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, that the Enterprise's refit was originally intended to be just an upgrade to her engines, but it snowballed out of control and the ship wound up being a testbed for several other new systems, prompting pretty much a redesign of the entire vessel. Of the original vessel, the only thing that may be left could be a few internal spaceframe members here and there, IMO.

cant remember where i read it (may have been Scotties Guide) but i think the ENT A was originally a new Constitution called Yorktown but when they decided to give kirk a ship got rechristened Ent A

 

[Dukhat]

cant remember where i read it (may have been Scotties Guide) but i think the ENT A was originally a new Constitution called Yorktown but when they decided to give kirk a ship got rechristened Ent A

Mr. Scott's Guide = ship was previously U.S.S. Ti-Ho.
Roddenberry = ship was previously U.S.S. Yorktown.
canon Star Trek = no definitive answer.

 

[BillJ]

Mr. Scott's Guide = ship was previously U.S.S. Ti-Ho.
Roddenberry = ship was previously U.S.S. Yorktown.
canon Star Trek = no definitive answer.

This sums it up.

Though I'm partial to the Ti-Ho conjecture. I'm fond of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

 

[Leto_II]

The FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.

 

[BillJ]

Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.

 

[JarodRussell]

Also, the FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.

I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Also, the FASA Star Trek IV Sourcebook Update likewise postulated a new-build NCC-1701-A, originally designated USS Atlantis (NCC-1786), and rechristened USS Enterprise after the Whalesong Crisis was resolved.

That said, I think authorial intent still has to be taken somewhat into account, with regard to the "new" Enterprise referenced in TFF -- it's very likely that William Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery were insinuating that the 1701-A was indeed a brand-new ship with Scotty's dialogue in that scene, and were intending for the audience to interpret it in that particular light, based on the rather simple and straightforward phrasing.

Again, true, that's by no means absolute proof, but it's worth considering, given the structure of the dialogue.

I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.

I pretty much go with that too. Personally, I think the Enterprise-A was probably a refitted Constitution-class that was almost as old as the original and was that old by the time of Star Trek VI.

 

[Dukhat]

Personally, I think it would be odd for an older ship that had just been operational to be having so many basic hardware and software issues.

Agreed. If Starfleet really was giving the crew such a gift for literally saving the planet, then I'd think it would have been at least checked out for problems first.

I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.

I suppose that makes about as much sense as anything else in STV. But if that were the case, then why did Admiral Harve send it out on a highly dangerous mission? Was he intentionally trying to get Kirk and his crew killed?

I pretty much go with that too. Personally, I think the Enterprise-A was probably a refitted Constitution-class that was almost as old as the original and was that old by the time of Star Trek VI.

Well, the one piece of visual evidence we have is that at the end of STIV the Ent-A's bridge is the same type as the original refit, but in STV it's newer, implying at least some kind of major upgrade was done between the two movies and that it wasn't a new ship.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I always thought that they gave newly demoted Captain Kirk a ship as thanks for saving the planet, but they gave him the worst ship in the fleet as cheap punishment at the same time.

Maybe it's different, seeing as he's James T. Kirk...but in a way it was a weird 'thanks for all that you do'. If I do something at work that ends up saving the employees' lives and the company from collapse, I'm not sure how appreciated I'd feel about "As a thanks for your heroic efforts...here's a truckload of more work!".

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Better than "Thanks for all the work, here's a two-year sentence in a Starfleet penal installation and a dishorable discharge for all the shit you pulled immediately beforehand."

Anyway, when I had this discussion with my late father not long after the movie came out, he pointed out that the militaries of today regularly continue to produce "obsolete" weapons years and even decades after they have been technically superseded by newer designs.

Also, there are two very strong out-of-universe reasons why we never see Connies in TNG et al. but we see no end of Excelsiors and Mirandas. 1. Neither of those classes was ever a hero ship. 24th Century appearances of the design could have diluted its iconic association with Kirk. 2. ILM built the Miranda and Excelsior models to be much lighter and easier to photograph than the Magicam-built Enterprise re-fit. It was no doubt cheaper and easier to re-use those miniatures than to use the Enterprise or to build several other 24th Century ships. Do we ever see one before "Yesterday's Enterprise"?

 

[Leto_II]

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Excellent points, Strudel. We do see the Constellation-class USS Stargazer in TNG's "The Battle," but interestingly (A) that design's actually a 23rd Century one, and (B) the plan was to reuse the TMP-refit Enterprise model in that particular episode, but was changed at the last minute (i.e., Geordi's now-infamous "Constellation class" post-production overdub, from "Constitution-class").

But yes -- prior to "Yesterday's Enterprise," we don't see any other new Starfleet ship classes onscreen before the Ambassador model was built (we see the Galaxy, Excelsior, Miranda, Constellation, and Oberth models reused quite extensiviely during Seasons 1 and 2).

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I had forgotten the Constellation class. Though it is essentially a Constitution class kitbash (and an ungainly one at that), it does qualify as a new design if not a very 24th Century seeming one.

 

[Leto_II]

Also, now that I'm remembering, we do hear the Ambassador-class referred to in dialogue way back in TNG's first season (in the episode "Conspiracy"), but no model was as then yet built (despite seeing debris onscreen after the USS Horatio's destruction).

 

[Dukhat]

ILM built the Miranda and Excelsior models to be much lighter and easier to photograph than the Magicam-built Enterprise re-fit. It was no doubt cheaper and easier to re-use those miniatures than to use the Enterprise or to build several other 24th Century ships. Do we ever see one before "Yesterday's Enterprise"?

We almost saw one as the Stargazer. While the yellow four-nacelled desktop model was always supposed to represent the ship, when VFX filming for "The Battle" commenced, they were going to use the TMP Enterprise instead to save money and time. However, Greg Jein was able to build the Constellation class model in time for it to be filmed.

*EDIT* Leto already stated this.