Their deaths were supposed to make it harder for Picard to disengage from the Nexus.
Should Robert/Rene have died?
- Thread starter jim-jean-ben
- Start date
He struggled with it for all of 10 seconds.
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This is pretty much my thought on the subject too.
I agree wholeheartedly. The movie would have been greatly enhanced with some kind of reference in the form of a teaser, or flashbacks, or something -- anything -- to illustrate Picard's connection to them. Absent that connection, the scene really falls flat and makes Picard's grief seem forced. Done properly, it would have been a very effective way to deepen the storyline.
But I can see the writers' problem with trying to add in more content -- however needed it was. The movie is so filled with contrivances that there's just not much room for one more. I imagine B&B standing in front of the blackboard with a bunch of bullets...
"Okay, guys," Braga would say, "we need to fit all this crap into 90 minutes. Go!"
Can you imagine if they told this as a story about mortality? Imagine if they started with that as the theme, and then built the story to support it? Generations might still not have been very good, but at least it would have been cohesive.
- Captain Kirk needs to meet Captain Picard
- Data gets emotions
- We want to see the Enterprise B
- We want to destroy the Enterprise D
- (And crash land the saucer section!)
- Lursa and B'etor and Klingon breast plates
- Kirk should die on a bridge (but let's not be too obvious by having him die on THE bridge.)
- Litter a bunch of obscure references that nobody except fans will understand and make them really overt so they know we're thinking about them (eg, Data understanding a joke from Encounter at Farpoint)
"Okay, guys," Braga would say, "we need to fit all this crap into 90 minutes. Go!"
Can you imagine if they told this as a story about mortality? Imagine if they started with that as the theme, and then built the story to support it? Generations might still not have been very good, but at least it would have been cohesive.
And also to remind us that this stodgy, tea drinking, Shakespeare loving, British-accent-having captain was indeed, French.
I know, right?
The whole barn fire thing seemed a little ridiculous, and even lazy. Even if he is a Luddite I imagine buildings must be up to code and they will bring them up to code for free.
Renee could have injured himself falling off a cliff or something.
Renee could have injured himself falling off a cliff or something.
As was stated before, it was never mentioned in the film where Robert and Rene were when they died. The prevailing assumption was that they were in their home, only due to the fact that Picard wasn't any more descriptive about the incident.
Something more like "a shuttlecraft accident" would probably have worked a whole lot better.
I haven't thought about this in years, but killing Robert and Rene angered me at the time. It seemed so obvious that they would have appeared in the Nexus, but it never paid off.
Death by fire, a senseless and preventable death in the 24th century, also could have been expanded. Picard engaged the future while Robert chose to live in the past. As we saw in "Family:"
His love of anachronism destroyed his son, a boy he (initially) wanted to protect from following in his brother's footsteps. Again, the episode provided so very much real drama that could have played out in Generations:
So much could have been shown via the Nexus, but it wasn't. If only … if only.
By the way, "First Contact" has Picard obliquely referring to Robert's conciliatory gift of wine. He said, "Jean-Luc, here is a little of the forty seven. Do not drink it all at once, and if possible, try not to drink it alone."
And, of course, he didn't.
Death by fire, a senseless and preventable death in the 24th century, also could have been expanded. Picard engaged the future while Robert chose to live in the past. As we saw in "Family:"
PICARD: No. In fact, it's amazing how little it has changed. Everything is exactly as I remember it. The house, the hills, every tree, every bush seems untouched by the passage of time.
MARIE: Robert's worked hard to keep it that way. It's very important to him.
PICARD: As it was to our father.
RENE: Someday I'm going to be a starship captain.
MARIE: Robert's worked hard to keep it that way. It's very important to him.
PICARD: As it was to our father.
RENE: Someday I'm going to be a starship captain.
His love of anachronism destroyed his son, a boy he (initially) wanted to protect from following in his brother's footsteps. Again, the episode provided so very much real drama that could have played out in Generations:
ROBERT: Father understood better than anybody else the danger of losing those values which we hold most precious.
PICARD: I don't see that you have to lose anything just by adding a convenience.
ROBERT: You wouldn't, but in my view, life is already too convenient.
MARIE: This is a very old argument.
RENE: I wrote a report on starships for school.
MARIE: And he won a ribbon for it.
RENE: The teacher said it was one of the best he'd ever heard.
PICARD: Good for you, Uncle. You know what? I once wrote a report about starships when I was about your age.
***
(Rene leaves the table)
ROBERT: It's hard enough to protect him, protect him from all that's out there without you encouraging him.
PICARD: I am not encouraging him. If you weren't so narrow minded, if you allowed him to see the world as it really is
ROBERT: You raise your own sons as you would wish, and allow me to do the same with mine.
PICARD: I don't see that you have to lose anything just by adding a convenience.
ROBERT: You wouldn't, but in my view, life is already too convenient.
MARIE: This is a very old argument.
RENE: I wrote a report on starships for school.
MARIE: And he won a ribbon for it.
RENE: The teacher said it was one of the best he'd ever heard.
PICARD: Good for you, Uncle. You know what? I once wrote a report about starships when I was about your age.
***
(Rene leaves the table)
ROBERT: It's hard enough to protect him, protect him from all that's out there without you encouraging him.
PICARD: I am not encouraging him. If you weren't so narrow minded, if you allowed him to see the world as it really is
ROBERT: You raise your own sons as you would wish, and allow me to do the same with mine.
So much could have been shown via the Nexus, but it wasn't. If only … if only.
By the way, "First Contact" has Picard obliquely referring to Robert's conciliatory gift of wine. He said, "Jean-Luc, here is a little of the forty seven. Do not drink it all at once, and if possible, try not to drink it alone."
And, of course, he didn't.
True, their deaths were just a plot device, but it still could have been handled so much better.
I do not feel the writers could be treated harshly enough for what the they did to Robert and René for the sake of Malcolm McDowell's throwaway line about how "time is the fire in which we burn." While the episode Family can still be enjoyable to watch, the knowledge that they die in the fire makes the episode painful - not because of a weak movie plot but for the cheapness the writers project onto their characters' lives as puppets to be killed at a whim. It makes me want to eliminate Generations from my head canon just as I have Alien 3 for the senseless snuffing of Newt, mostly, and Hicks and ultimately Ripley because the writers could think of nothing better and took the easy way out. Like they always do with terrific unimaginativeness. Need drama? Need shock? Need ratings?? Let's say it like Arlo Guthrie: Kill! Kill! Kill!
I've written about this before. BillJ had a decent reply in one post, which I'll include here in context:
And in a thread about "Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of":
But rather than death as a "last resort" of an unimaginative writer, I should have written "first resort." You can write a decent story that includes death; Generations wasn't one of them.
I've written about this before. BillJ had a decent reply in one post, which I'll include here in context:
And in a thread about "Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of":
But rather than death as a "last resort" of an unimaginative writer, I should have written "first resort." You can write a decent story that includes death; Generations wasn't one of them.
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I don't think these deaths were intended as mere plot devices or throwaway gimmicks. This eventuality was foreshadowed in "Family," especially when you consider that Robert chided Jean-Luc about giving parenting advice without having the benefit of experience.
The Nexus scenes show Picard realizing that wish, but it was never connected to the loss of Rene and Robert. This seems to be a failure of execution; given the troubled nature of the production, I'm not surprised that this linkage was regrettably lost.
"Family" exhibited some of Ron Moore's finest writing. I can see where it was heading in Generations, but too much happened too quickly for him to bring it home.
Soran's story is thematically linked to Picard's. Both suffered the loss of family. While Soran attempted to recreate those lost souls through literal wish fulfillment, Picard chose reality. Instead of trying to recreate and preserve the past as Robert did, Picard moved forward with the times. It's a story as old as Star Trek: "Either you live life as it happens to you … or you turn your back on and start to whither away and die.", but it simply didn't gel. More's the pity, to be sure, but faulting the writers for lack of effort or creativity misses the mark. Too many cooks have spoiled more than one Hollywood broth.
To paraphrase the captain, "Oh, it's all right. These things happen."
The Nexus scenes show Picard realizing that wish, but it was never connected to the loss of Rene and Robert. This seems to be a failure of execution; given the troubled nature of the production, I'm not surprised that this linkage was regrettably lost.
"Family" exhibited some of Ron Moore's finest writing. I can see where it was heading in Generations, but too much happened too quickly for him to bring it home.
Soran's story is thematically linked to Picard's. Both suffered the loss of family. While Soran attempted to recreate those lost souls through literal wish fulfillment, Picard chose reality. Instead of trying to recreate and preserve the past as Robert did, Picard moved forward with the times. It's a story as old as Star Trek: "Either you live life as it happens to you … or you turn your back on and start to whither away and die.", but it simply didn't gel. More's the pity, to be sure, but faulting the writers for lack of effort or creativity misses the mark. Too many cooks have spoiled more than one Hollywood broth.
To paraphrase the captain, "Oh, it's all right. These things happen."
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I think the writer of Generations just miscalculated Robert and Renee as characters the audience would have no emotional attachment to.
Um.. Is it necessary to spoiler-protect a movie that came out 21 years ago?...
Not at all. I was just trying to be polite by keeping my somewhat off-topic rant hidden from passive readers.
I can kind of see that there were some people involved that really cared about what came before in the TNG series (group A) and wanted to add those continuity details and then there were others (group z) that didn't think that was important because this is a "movie" and everything on tv doesn't matter. It's like both sides were present and clashing and that's why the execution was so off.
This is a perfect example, because group a cared to get the names right an match up to what we saw only for group z to write off in such away as to make it cheap and stupid.
This also reminds me of this thread, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=265681
They cared enough in the prop department or where ever to hand Stewart something that would Picard would actually have in his office but not instruct him in the value that the prop represents to Picard.
There's lots of callbacks, but instead of moving the story forward, they are more like winks and nods. Or worse, deployed so clumsily the winks and nods turn into middle fingers that only some people notice. It's bizarre actually, while I certainly understand not catering to the "fans" and trying to make a good movie for everyone, why also make sure to shrift the fans. I think that's one of the worst mistakes they made with those movies.
This is a perfect example, because group a cared to get the names right an match up to what we saw only for group z to write off in such away as to make it cheap and stupid.
This also reminds me of this thread, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=265681
They cared enough in the prop department or where ever to hand Stewart something that would Picard would actually have in his office but not instruct him in the value that the prop represents to Picard.
There's lots of callbacks, but instead of moving the story forward, they are more like winks and nods. Or worse, deployed so clumsily the winks and nods turn into middle fingers that only some people notice. It's bizarre actually, while I certainly understand not catering to the "fans" and trying to make a good movie for everyone, why also make sure to shrift the fans. I think that's one of the worst mistakes they made with those movies.
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