Should Picard really have shot the assimilated crewman?

[Mr Silver]

It's something I was thinking about. Picard tells the team when they are arming themselves that "should they encounter assimilated Enterprise crewmembers, to not hesitate from opening fire". He then makes a quip about doing them a favour from apparent personal experience.

Is Picard shooting a just assimilated crewman justified? Obviously he had no time to rescue the crewman, despite the crewman's pleas for help. At the same time the crewman was immobilised and was no threat to Picard. I argue that Picard should have left the crewman. Despite being shown the Borg being neutralised when the Queen was killed, its not out of the realms of possibility to assume that the drones outside Engineering survived (disconnected from the collective, but survived, nonetheless). Although Picard wouldn't have factored such a thing as happening, I do think he went a bit far shooting the crewman.

Thoughts?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Picard was OTT throughout the entire movie, what with the Captain Ahab comparison.

He wasn't thinking clearly at all, so killing assimilated crewmen kinda fits in with his mindset.

 

[Saxman1]

That wasn't the Picard of the TV series in the films, so I can't really judge. Hypothetically, would I rather be shot than assimilated? Definitely.

 

[Marc]

It's something I was thinking about. Picard tells the team when they are arming themselves that "should they encounter assimilated Enterprise crewmembers, to not hesitate from opening fire". He then makes a quip about doing them a favour from apparent personal experience.

Is Picard shooting a just assimilated crewman justified? Obviously he had no time to rescue the crewman, despite the crewman's pleas for help. At the same time the crewman was immobilised and was no threat to Picard. I argue that Picard should have left the crewman. Despite being shown the Borg being neutralised when the Queen was killed, its not out of the realms of possibility to assume that the drones outside Engineering survived (disconnected from the collective, but survived, nonetheless). Although Picard wouldn't have factored such a thing as happening, I do think he went a bit far shooting the crewman.

Thoughts?

Actions like Picards have long been considered and act of mercy through history.

At the time Picard didn't know he would be able to defeat the Queen and while the crewman/drone was immobile wasn't that only during the assimilation process. Once complete it would mean another drnne to contend with.

 

[JarodRussell]

It's something I was thinking about. Picard tells the team when they are arming themselves that "should they encounter assimilated Enterprise crewmembers, to not hesitate from opening fire". He then makes a quip about doing them a favour from apparent personal experience.

Is Picard shooting a just assimilated crewman justified? Obviously he had no time to rescue the crewman, despite the crewman's pleas for help. At the same time the crewman was immobilised and was no threat to Picard. I argue that Picard should have left the crewman. Despite being shown the Borg being neutralised when the Queen was killed, its not out of the realms of possibility to assume that the drones outside Engineering survived (disconnected from the collective, but survived, nonetheless). Although Picard wouldn't have factored such a thing as happening, I do think he went a bit far shooting the crewman.

Thoughts?

Yeah, leaving him there to first get mind raped in agony and then used to assimilate others. He may have not been a threat at that moment, but later on. Killing him was the best option.

And eventually, Picard and Data killed all the Borg aboard the ship anyway. Yes,,including all of the assimilated crewmembers.

 

[BillJ]

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone question Picard's decision there.

Would you rather be killed or turned into a cybernetic zombie that assimilates and kills others of your own kind? Not really a hard question for me to answer.

Picard made the right decision from both a tactical and moral standpoint.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ By the same token, they should have killed Picard in BOBW, though they didn't know quite as much about the Borg then.

I know, I know, main character vs. peon, writing and such, etc. etc.

 

[BillJ]

^ By the same token, they should have killed Picard in BOBW, though they didn't know quite as much about the Borg then.

I know, I know, main character vs. peon, writing and such, etc. etc.

Riker did try.

 

[Mr Silver]

Picard made the right decision from both a tactical and moral standpoint.

From a tactical standpoint perhaps, lesser numbers to combat, etc. But from a moral standpoint? Picard knows himself that people can be rescued from the Borg should the opportunity arise.

Looking back, how do we know Picard didn't merely stun the crewman? He could have rationalised that killing an unarmed man wouldn't sit well with him and instead stunned the crewman in order to prevent him suffering the pain of assimilation and the gradual loss of individuality.

 

[BillJ]

From a tactical standpoint perhaps, lesser numbers to combat, etc. But from a moral standpoint? Picard knows himself that people can be rescued from the Borg should the opportunity arise.

If the opportunity arises. But what is your assessment of that opportunity, at that point in time? The Borg have obliterated a fleet, you're trapped in the past and you're vessel is slowly being overran by the Borg.

What is you evaluation of being able to save that crewman at a latter point in time from a debilitating condition? He was obviously suffering and would continue to suffer until some future time, at best. He asked to be relieved of the pain and Picard followed his wishes.

Picard did the moral thing.

 

[Timo]

Picard knows himself that people can be rescued from the Borg

Does he?

To our and their knowledge, nobody had ever been successfully de-Borgified in the Alpha Quadrant at that point. Picard had been de-Locutified, but he might be aware of the fact that it's fundamentally different from de-Borgification. And the movie itself stands proof that even the de-Locutification was unsuccessful, leaving Picard still fully equipped with a Borg radio!

Now, ENT "Regeneration" may suggest that de-Borgifying was possible, and had been possible in the 22nd century already. But knowledge from that episode's events wasn't part of Picard's knowledge at any point. Apparently, the early knowledge was lost, partially or in full.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I think Locutus was just a basic Borg, but with different software or a better network connection.

 

[little_chris]

I think Locutus was just a basic Borg, but with different software or a better network connection.

So he was an Apple? And everyone else is a PC?

 

[Mr_Homn]

Locutus had access to all of Picard's memories and prior knowledge, and he was programmed as an Individual, not a run of the mill drone. So I do think "de-Locutification" (lol) was definitely different than regular "deborgification". The main reason being that his sense of individuality was always intact, even as Locutus.

 

[Tiberius]

Is Picard shooting a just assimilated crewman justified?

Picard knew for a fact that being assimilated was a nightmarish experience. Death is a much more attractive option.

I think Locutus was just a basic Borg, but with different software or a better network connection.

I always thought that Locutus was the Borg Queen's way of saying, "Look what I can do to you! This is going to happen to you, there's no way you can avoid it!"

Have a read of this to get a better idea of what I mean.

 

[Cadet49]

Locutus had access to all of Picard's memories and prior knowledge, and he was programmed as an Individual, not a run of the mill drone. So I do think "de-Locutification" (lol) was definitely different than regular "deborgification". The main reason being that his sense of individuality was always intact, even as Locutus.

This was my impression of Picard's transformation as well. The Borg wanted a human voice to represent them in Best of Both Worlds, so they allowed him to retain some of his individuality. Perhaps the same could also be said of Seven of Nine - they were "Speakers for the Borg", unlike regular drones, which seem more like Zombies, whose original personalities have been wipped out.

I always found it interesting that in TNG, when Hugh was seperated from the collective, he did not seem to revert to a prior personality (though he might have been born a Borg.)

In VOY, in contrast, it seems that people can be recovered from the collective, as we saw several times, despite Picard's statement in First Contact that there was "no way to save them", and in fact, wasn't Dr. Phlox, on ENT, able to actually reverse the assimilation process and kill the nanoprobes when they encountered the Borg - all the way back in the 22nd century??? That always confused me ... I think the writers of the different films/series all had different views of the nature of the Borg... personally, I like to think of the Borg as zombies - if they "bite" you with their "stingers", they assimilate you - an element of you might remain deep inside, but you are largely a zombie, like the victims of the zombie virus in the Resident Evil movies - more terrifying that way!

 

[Tiberius]

Hugh didn't revert back to a prior personality? So when he said, "Don't hurt my friend Geordie," that was all Borg?

 

[Mr_Homn]

Hugh didn't revert back to a prior personality? So when he said, "Don't hurt my friend Geordie," that was all Borg?

That was only after he had the concept of friendship explained to him. There was no reverting back to a pre-borg personality.

 

[Ghrakh]

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

 

[Timo]

The Klingons had another idea - kill all the Gods, and it's already sorted out by default!

wasn't Dr. Phlox, on ENT, able to actually reverse the assimilation process and kill the nanoprobes when they encountered the Borg - all the way back in the 22nd century???

Apparently, he was. But perhaps he was the Nicola Tesla of his time, a bit too weird for the mainstream scientific community to take seriously, and unmotivated to reveal his greatest secrets?

Certainly it's made clear that Picard remains unaware of anything related to Phlox' achievement or his encounter with the cyborgs right through ST:FC and beyond. Why is that? Well, ENT was taking place in a timeframe where another comparable revelation apparently got "unrevealed" somehow - the identity of the Romulans, and their ability to make their ships invisible. Perhaps the early years of the Federation featured some incident where a lot of information was erased?

Timo Saloniemi