should PARAMOUNT take over?

[U.S.S. Republic]

I just don't think they really 'matter' as the Star Wars books do... I would be more apt to buy more if I thought it was a community aspect to the books..not just stand alones...I don't mean serialized books, I mean at least some concept that what I am reading matters and is official...and changes the community..

This is the very reason I stopped buying Star Wars books.
There was so much interconnection it would make Marvel and DC jealous.
Adding in the comics for Star Wars is just the envy on the jealousy.

The fan community of Star Wars and their EU worship? Star Trek Fans once had the awards on trivia geekery. Not anymore.
I don't want to buy every single book and comic just to read a story and understand everything in it. Cute references that are vague and obscure (Easter Eggs) just make me resolute in not purchasing another like it.

Gimme short series like the Han Solo at Stars End, Han Solo's Revenge and Han Solo & the Lost Legacy any day. They never tied into anything other than themselves. Splinter of the Mind's Eye? Good Book. Did those need to be expanded and referenced into every other Star Wars book imaginable? No. Nor should they.

All the new stuff - Star Wars and Star Trek alike? Yaknow I just don't enjoy having every oddball and obscure reference shoved down my throat just to show that the writers are aware of them. I'll eat elsewhere. I'm much happier now about my light snacks instead of having them so heavily laden with sugar that it makes me sick and jittery with sugar overload that I slip into a coma.

Vanguard series is a good example. It is consistent within itself and has a few of those other novel related Easter Eggs thrown in that I can handily dismiss (most of the time), but isn't overladen with them. More like this, but less Easter Eggs.

Circle-jerks, not my thing.

 

[nx1701g]

Star Wars Canon Explained

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely.

T-canon, or Television Canon, refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be; they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

N-canon is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Vanguard series is a good example. It is consistent within itself and has a few of those other novel related Easter Eggs thrown in that I can handily dismiss (most of the time), but isn't overladen with them. More like this, but less Easter Eggs.

If an Easter egg is so obscure you don't recognise it, why even worry?

If a character in a "Vanguard" novel refers to a place on Andor called Therin Park, he could be referring to Heather Jarman's mention of the locale in "Andor: Paradigm" (Worlds of DS9, Book 1). Or, he could be referring to a character in the first "Starship Exeter" fan film. Or, he could be referring to uber ST geek, Ian McLean. Or it could all be a coincidence.

If the same character refers to a Tollin Park instead, how would you know if it was an Easter egg or not? And if he refers to Andor, does it matter if he calls it a planet, as per usual, or a moon, as revealed in the ENT episode "The Aenar"?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Star Wars Canon Explained

Star Wars: five canons. Bad.

Star Trek: one canon. Good.

So how come it's ST canon that gets all the flak?

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I honestly don't give a tribble's ass if the books are "canon" or not, so long as they're well written and entertaining.

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

If an Easter egg is so obscure you don't recognise it, why even worry?

Most of them I can spot, just because of they way they are presented. I also said obscure, not unknown or unrecognized.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Most of them I can spot, just because of they way they are presented. I also said obscure, not unknown or unrecognized.

Well, of course the unknown (to you) Easter eggs stay unrecognised. I don't see the problem.

 

[Sxottlan]

Since I highly doubt there will ever be a TNG movie again, this means the entire TNG era (TNG-DS9-VOY) would be able to make official canon books.

Since the 24th century probably won't be making a return to screens large or small any time soon, I really don't see the point in trying to make books canon for something that most likely will never return to begin with.

 

[U.S.S. Republic]

Well, of course the unknown (to you) Easter eggs stay unrecognised. I don't see the problem.

Because those references are the least of the problems, and mostly can be dismissed without too much trouble. You're focusing too much on the easter egg comment and not taking into account everything I had to say.
Misdirection or just misunderstanding?

Let's say for example I'm reading a DS9 story (hell will freeze over first), but let's say so anyway. I don't want to or should have to reference other books, let's say Voyager & some book or series about Klingons, in order to understand some character or location that is of huge story importance there or why their brief easter egg cameo in the DS9 book is related. Tell that story in the books related to it (flashback if you must - or some other way of reference), not just done for some sacred cow of "continuity" between books. If it is a cameo easter egg, it's almost assured it was of no importance to begin with. Thus, easily dismissed.
If it was important, put it where it belongs as part of that story - not just thrown in other books to be "cool".

Or we could use Star Wars; events of this New Jedi Order thing. I shouldn't need to have read 25 books about it to understand the comic - let's say Star Wars Legacy. Or that it references and depends on plotlines in say Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and some video game to be understood.

Is that clearer? Or do you need to go back to easter eggs again?

 

[Therin of Andor]

If it is a cameo easter egg, it's almost assured it was of no importance to begin with. Thus, easily dismissed.
If it was important, put it where it belongs as part of that story - not just thrown in other books to be "cool".

Please give examples of where references to other ST books have been too gratuitous and uncool.

Surely, it's all a matter of personal taste? For every reference that has ever annoyed you, or passed unnoticed by your radar, another fan has gone, "Hey cool!" And vice versa. Some references I didn't care for might have been significant for you. For example, I never care if the author says Warp 5 for a three-day trip if it should be Warp 7, but some fans do these calculations. Ditto stardate inconsistencies. Different strokes... etc.

I'm happy to know that the references were significant enough for the author that they were included. For example, I can always tell which ST novelists are TAS and Filmation fans, since they are usually the only ones to reference TAS events and people. An author calling a shuttlecraft the Fontana is probably a fan of her work. "Vanguard" titles are named after "Rush" songs - whoever "Rush" might be? - and so on.

You don't have to buy "Rush" CDs to enjoy the "Vanguard" novels, and you don't have to watch or know TAS, or read "New Frontier" if a ST novel or comic contains a TAS or NF reference.

 

[pookha]

What an idiotic notion. A few people complaining because they can't wrap their minds around the way tie-ins work cannot conveivably be cause for scrapping the entire book line, which already has good leadership in the form of the editors and Paula Block, and a largely consistent continuity. The books have taken the opportunity of the series ending to continue the story forwards on their own. And I don't see what your buying habits have to do with anything; if you're not buying because you don't think the books are in continuity, you've made a mistake, and if you're not buying because you don't care for all the others, then that's entirely your perogative but doesn't impact on anybody else but you.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Well..double idiot on you. Why can't these writers write books that take what the others have written into account? Star Wars books do it. Why can't star trek? You need to be more acceptable to other people's opinions or, at least, go to an anger management specialist.

Rob
Scorpio

frankly it is a reason i dont buy most the star wars books.
that and the quality has wide swings depending on the author.
i dont like having to buy something by a hack just because it fits in with a book written by a much better author.

while the books always have tried to take into account the current
continuity (considering even tos had glitches within its own continuity)
i like how in some cases the authors were not held slave to every single book that came before which allowed a bit of their own voices through.
and they already have something going on for ds9, voyager like you describe.
a series that is considered to be offical continuation of the series.

but if an author has a really great story to tell that perhaps wouldnt fit within that.., well it would be nice if it were allowed to be printed.


a series that i like most of the books that laughs at film continuity are the books were kirk were bought back to life.

 

[Trent Roman]

I don't want to or should have to reference other books, let's say Voyager & some book or series about Klingons, in order to understand some character or location that is of huge story importance there or why their brief easter egg cameo in the DS9 book is related. Tell that story in the books related to it (flashback if you must - or some other way of reference), not just done for some sacred cow of "continuity" between books.

That has only ever happened once, and never again since. If an event from outside one particular novel is important in that book, you can be assured the author(s) will summarize all the information that is necessary to understand what is happening.

If it is a cameo easter egg, it's almost assured it was of no importance to begin with. Thus, easily dismissed.
If it was important, put it where it belongs as part of that story - not just thrown in other books to be "cool".

You're shooting yourself in the foot here; if you claim such easter eggs are easily dismissed, then why don't you do just that? Why should everybody else lose the 'fun' of continuity and the sense of a coherent universe just to accomodate your particular pet-peeve.

Or we could use Star Wars; events of this New Jedi Order thing. I shouldn't need to have read 25 books about it to understand the comic - let's say Star Wars Legacy.

Again, a wild exagerration. I've never read the Young Jedi books, the characters and events later showed up/influence the main line of the fiction in the NJO and elsewhere, but I never had any trouble following what was happening, for the very simple reason that the authors provide you with all the information that is critical to know.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[David cgc]

Let's say for example I'm reading a DS9 story (hell will freeze over first), but let's say so anyway. I don't want to or should have to reference other books, let's say Voyager & some book or series about Klingons, in order to understand some character or location that is of huge story importance there or why their brief easter egg cameo in the DS9 book is related.

Tell me, would you react this same way if in a mystery novel about a New York detective, the main character traveled to Canada to find the murderer? Would you go, "Oh, for God's sake, now I have to go to the library and read all the books with this Canada place so I won't miss out on anything," and resent the authors daring to even imply that there might exist a world outside of New York?

If you don't have to know everything there is to know about Canada to enjoy a mystery novel, why are you assuming you have to know everything there is to know about Minos Korva to enjoy a Star Trek novel? And even then, it's just as likely that a Star Trek novel will mention something from an episode you haven't seen as it is that it'll be something from a book you haven't read.

 

[Nerdius Maximus]

What an idiotic notion. A few people complaining because they can't wrap their minds around the way tie-ins work cannot conveivably be cause for scrapping the entire book line, which already has good leadership in the form of the editors and Paula Block, and a largely consistent continuity. The books have taken the opportunity of the series ending to continue the story forwards on their own. And I don't see what your buying habits have to do with anything; if you're not buying because you don't think the books are in continuity, you've made a mistake, and if you're not buying because you don't care for all the others, then that's entirely your perogative but doesn't impact on anybody else but you.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Well..double idiot on you. Why can't these writers write books that take what the others have written into account? Star Wars books do it. Why can't star trek? You need to be more acceptable to other people's opinions or, at least, go to an anger management specialist.

Rob
Scorpio

frankly it is a reason i dont buy most the star wars books.
that and the quality has wide swings depending on the author.
i dont like having to buy something by a hack just because it fits in with a book written by a much better author.

while the books always have tried to take into account the current
continuity (considering even tos had glitches within its own continuity)
i like how in some cases the authors were not held slave to every single book that came before which allowed a bit of their own voices through.
and they already have something going on for ds9, voyager like you describe.
a series that is considered to be offical continuation of the series.

but if an author has a really great story to tell that perhaps wouldnt fit within that.., well it would be nice if it were allowed to be printed.


a series that i like most of the books that laughs at film continuity are the books were kirk were bought back to life.

I generally tend to lean toward books that stand alone. I'm not into this "Book 1 of 6" stuff, really. Unless they're written by the same author or at least various authors I like and am familiar with. Like Timothy Zahn, I'll buy anything he puts out, because I associate his name with quality work.

 

[Rush Limborg]

On the subject of "in-your-face-continuity", consider... and reflect....

The old, Pre-Richard-Arnold Trek books often had (I swear) FOOTNOTES! I mean, here I am, enjoying a good story, and all of a sudden, smack in the text, there is a super-forced reference to some previous story ("Of course, captain, there was the incident at Arkurum Four, when..."), which inevitably come with a great, big *. As if by magic, my eyes go straight to the bottom of the page, wherin resides a book title, an author's name, and a publishing company's name. Sometimes, it's not as bad (when the reference is to an episode), but even then, it completely demolishes one's enjoyment of the story.

Thank goodness, we don't have that today. Today's "continuity", while pathetic, is NOTHING compared to back then!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thank goodness, we don't have that today. Today's "continuity", while pathetic, is NOTHING compared to back then!

You know, a lot of fans look back on the Bantam and early Pocket footnoting with great fondness. These days we have online author annotations, minipedias and bbs!

Which brings me to a request. I know some authors have added more recent sets of online notes. Please let me know what I'm missing:
http://www.sff.net/people/krad/aotfann.htm
http://www.allyngibson.net/st-const.html
http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/ExMachinaNotes.html
http://www.exploringtheuniverse.net/tfb/annotations_TFB.htm
http://www.infinitydog.com/harbingerindex.html
http://home.kc.rr.com/daytonward/dwhonor2.htm
http://www.sff.net/people/krad/manyann.htm
http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/Trekspoilers.html#Mere
http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/OrionsHoundsAnnot.html
http://members.aol.com/wleisner/ootcnotes.htm
http://www.andymangels.com/lcars.asp?db=tngs31r&loc=egs1
http://home.kc.rr.com/daytonward/dwstt2.htm
http://www.sff.net/people/krad/wpann.htm
http://www.infinitydog.com/warpathindex.html

Single short stories:
http://home.kc.rr.com/daytonward/dwsnw2-a.htm
http://home.kc.rr.com/daytonward/dwsnw3-a.htm

 

[Dayton Ward]

On the subject of "in-your-face-continuity", consider... and reflect....

The old, Pre-Richard-Arnold Trek books often had (I swear) FOOTNOTES! I mean, here I am, enjoying a good story, and all of a sudden, smack in the text, there is a super-forced reference to some previous story ("Of course, captain, there was the incident at Arkurum Four, when..."), which inevitably come with a great, big *. As if by magic, my eyes go straight to the bottom of the page, wherin resides a book title, an author's name, and a publishing company's name. Sometimes, it's not as bad (when the reference is to an episode), but even then, it completely demolishes one's enjoyment of the story.

^ That happened in two books I can remember (the novelization to ST:TMP, and the oft-maligned Promtheus Design...were there others?), and it was the authors' choice to do it.

And Therin, with regard to annotations: Memory Beta: Author's Annotations

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ All four Marshak & Culbreath novels, IIRC, plus the two "New Voyages" collections they edited, had plentiful footnotes.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Well, see...there's the problem. I'd almost succeeded in blocking those from my memory.

Thanks, dude. Thanks a lot.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thanks, dude. Thanks a lot.

Yeah but YOU weren't the one who ended up skim reading "The Prometheus Design" again - just to help out Jeff Ayers' April Fools Day joke on this bbs when he was finishing off "Voyages of Imagination".

(Got a signed VoI out of it, though...)