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Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

The exact same bruises twice? No, I don't think so. (And the damage to the Enterprise in TSFS is actually far worse than it was at the end of TWOK, so DC's interpolation actually helps explain that contradiction.)

All in all, I don't think rewarding Lt. Kirk with a captaincy for saving the Earth is any more silly than rewarding an outlaw Admiral Kirk with a captaincy for saving the Earth. I mean, the only strikes against Lt. Kirk as a potential captain are youth and inexperience. Adm. Kirk had plenty of command experience, but he had stolen a ship of the line. That's piracy, hijacking, and mutiny at the very least, and those are the kind of crimes that typically carry a penalty of life imprisonment. even execution in some cultures. I just can't buy that Starfleet would give command of one of its ships to a captain and crew willing to commit felonies of such high magnitude merely in order to save the hypothetical soul of a dead colleague, no matter how many planets they'd saved. I could buy them dropping the charges, but not reinstating his captaincy. More likely the entire bunch of them would've been required to go into early retirement, or at most given desk jobs and never allowed near another starship for the rest of their careers.

So giving a starship command to a brilliant young lieutenant fresh out of the Academy? That's about a thousand times more believable than the end of The Voyage Home.
 
Given the number of times Kirk's ship has been hijacked (once by his First Officer!!!) its amazing he even made Admiral!
 
Not to mention Picard getting a new starship after losing his previous one -- twice. And then trashing his third ship in the battle with Shinzon and still getting to keep it. The fact is, Starfleet will give a ship command to just about anybody. ;)
 
So giving a starship command to a brilliant young lieutenant fresh out of the Academy? That's about a thousand times more believable than the end of The Voyage Home.

A Starship, perhaps. A smaller one, maybe similar to the Kelvin. That I could see. The biggest, baddest, newest, most powerful in the fleet? I don't think so. You wouldn't get out of Annapolis and take command of the USS Ronald Reagan.

Unfortunately, they had to have Kirk in the center seat at the end of the movie, no matter how illogical it was.

As for Prime Kirk, let's not forget that TVH was the second time he had saved everyone on Earth. If I was threatened with having my entire planet destroyed not once but twice in the span of abut 15 years, I'd be willing to cut the guy some slack. After all, NuKirk didn't save Vulcan. That puts him at 1 for 2.
 
Kirk wasn't in command when Vulcan was destroyed - Spock was. Kirk was on the away mission to the drill with Sulu.

I fail to see how anyone on the Enterprise could have stopped Nero at that point. Shooting the Red Matter missile would have just set it off in orbit, causing the same destruction, albeit in a less symmetrical fashion. Also the crew had no idea that what Nero was doing at the time.

Spock Prime was adament that Kirk be in command of the Enterprise. He also hand picked the new Vulcan colony world, so TPTB would appear to have some faith in his judgement (since he said he's not hiding himself it's possible they're aware that he's from the future). He also personally ensured his younger self would remain with the Enterprise crew. He's pulling the strings.

Kirk had Spock Prime, oracle from an alternate future, on his side. He had Chris Pike, former captain of the flagship, on his side. He'd saved the capital world of the Federation from destruction, and had an exemplary record at SFA.
 
Why is it the usual some guys spouting off their hatred of the film whenever the film is mentioned?

Why is it there's always some guy who confuses a reasonable dislike for something with "spouting off hatred"? This is a discussion board, not an "agreement board." I think I've been very civil in my comments about the movie, and may have even prompted some decent discussion.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm merely refuting the specific point that a film's hero not growing over the course of the film is a storytelling error. That's a widely held assumption that's simply incorrect. Now, it's true that you may not like the particular hero, but that's a matter of individual taste. It's not a matter of fundamental story structure.

Oh, I agree with that. But some people around here seem to think that my individual taste is fundamentally wrong (see above). You may not feel that way, but I intend to refute the point that the only reason to dislike the movie is a predisposition toward unwarranted hatred.

Of course the original Mission Impossible movie, by Brian Depalma, made Jim Phelps into the villain. Made him responsible for the deaths of IMF agents. Hardly respectable. It also was more of a star vehicle for Tom Cruise than the ensemble cast of the TV show.

It could have been partly redeemed if, at the end, when Tom Cruise's character gets the recording on the plane it had said "Good afternoon, Mr. Phelps.", thus making the name an alias for the prime agent. Instead, it treated the original character very badly indeed.

This is true, and if I had been a fan of the show when that movie came out, I probably would've been very upset indeed. And don't get me started on the joke that was M:I2. But I thought that 3 did a very good job of recapturing the format of the series ("caper" operations putting the different talents of each team member to good, dramatic use), while still updating and recreating it to suit the modern viewer. Not having watched any of them in a while, I'd have to say at this point, I think that M:I3 is the one I'm most pleased with (and that's while now being a fan of the show).

But the difference with M:I3 is that the individual characters of M:I aren't as iconic as the general structure (and the theme song). So a fan of the show can watch that movie without being bogged down by comparing or contrasting the individual qualities of their favorite characters. It's a shame that a new Trek movie with an original cast would very likely have been less successful. It's hard for me to get excited about someone named Kirk being in the movie when I just can't find that essential Kirkness that Christopher talks about. I guess it's just a fundamental disagreement about what his most essential qualities are.

Contrary to what some peole say, I don't hate the movie. I'm disappointed that it took the easy way of making a summer blockbuster with a veneer of Star Trek painted on top.

Disappointed, but not surprised, right? Because the summer blockbuster is the obvious choice for people whose only concern is profit. Even when I was excited about the upcoming movie, and hoping it might have some depth to it, I knew it wasn't really going to be anything more than a big, explosive, action-fest. TWoK used to be my favorite movie, but now I really wish that TMP had been done a little better, so that it's style of thought-provoking storytelling could've caught on, instead of just non-stop explosions. And don't get me wrong, I love a good space battle just as much as the next guy, but in moderation. Think about how few shots were actually fired in an intense episode like "The Corbomite Maneuver." Or even "The Doomsday Machine," which had quite a few more shots fired, but was as much a battle of ideals as it was a space battle. But then, I guess it'll still ultimately come down to the simple question of whether the individual viewer appreciates the characters involved.

The public wants to see legends in their proper place at the end of an origin movie, especially in a summer blockbuster.

Unfortunately, they had to have Kirk in the center seat at the end of the movie, no matter how illogical it was.

This is why I hate origin movies. The original series didn't have a two-hour pilot showing how everyone get there, and yet, people still watched it. It's another thing I don't understand about the average viewer, this driving need to have all the back-story meticulously explained. The writers aren't to blame, because they're giving the public what they want, but I, for one, don't understand why the public wants it. Not saying it's wrong, but it is very strange to me.

I would've liked that, and one of the filmmakers has commented that they were deliberately vague about how much time passed between the climax of the film and the promotion ceremony. However, that's unfortunately not entirely accurate, since at the ceremony, Kirk still has partly healed bruises in the same places as his bruises earlier in the film. So it can't be more than a couple of days later that he gets promoted.

Or he got similar injuries on a different mission, you know like how DC redamaged the Enterprise in time from TSFS.

I was thinking about that too. Didn't they also re-lobotomize Spock in time for TVH?

All in all, I don't think rewarding Lt. Kirk with a captaincy for saving the Earth is any more silly than rewarding an outlaw Admiral Kirk with a captaincy for saving the Earth. I mean, the only strikes against Lt. Kirk as a potential captain are youth and inexperience. Adm. Kirk had plenty of command experience, but he had stolen a ship of the line. That's piracy, hijacking, and mutiny at the very least, and those are the kind of crimes that typically carry a penalty of life imprisonment. even execution in some cultures. I just can't buy that Starfleet would give command of one of its ships to a captain and crew willing to commit felonies of such high magnitude merely in order to save the hypothetical soul of a dead colleague, no matter how many planets they'd saved. I could buy them dropping the charges, but not reinstating his captaincy. More likely the entire bunch of them would've been required to go into early retirement, or at most given desk jobs and never allowed near another starship for the rest of their careers.

So giving a starship command to a brilliant young lieutenant fresh out of the Academy? That's about a thousand times more believable than the end of The Voyage Home.

This is just a bit of continuity-Spackle itself, but I have long held the idea that, after being the first ship to come back from a five-year mission relatively intact, Kirk and crew were mega-heroes, prompting Starfleet Command to juice them thoroughly for PR (which might as well also explain why all of Starfleet adopted the Enterprise delta as its logo). So, by the time of TVH, forcing these galactic idols into early retirement would fall under that obscure but oft-used legal loophole, "celebrities are above the law." I like to figure that whoever made that ruling felt that putting Kirk back in command of a ship would be fantastic for PR (which can also explain the bridge crew full of Captains and Commanders), and they would just try to spoon-feed him really basic missions instead of actually having them go out to seek strange new worlds.

But yeah, while I wouldn't call it "a thousand times more believable," I'm sure nuKirk's promotion could be explained just as easily.
 
Of course the original Mission Impossible movie, by Brian Depalma, made Jim Phelps into the villain. Made him responsible for the deaths of IMF agents. Hardly respectable. It also was more of a star vehicle for Tom Cruise than the ensemble cast of the TV show.

It could have been partly redeemed if, at the end, when Tom Cruise's character gets the recording on the plane it had said "Good afternoon, Mr. Phelps.", thus making the name an alias for the prime agent. Instead, it treated the original character very badly indeed.

Nice idea, but it wouldn't have been consistent with the series. The lead agent in the first season was named Dan Briggs. And we know Jim Phelps was really named Jim Phelps, because he was called that by old friends from his youth in more than one episode.

What could've worked to salvage it would be if the Phelps of the movie had been an impostor. M:I lore is full of impostors.


This is true, and if I had been a fan of the show when that movie came out, I probably would've been very upset indeed. And don't get me started on the joke that was M:I2. But I thought that 3 did a very good job of recapturing the format of the series ("caper" operations putting the different talents of each team member to good, dramatic use), while still updating and recreating it to suit the modern viewer. Not having watched any of them in a while, I'd have to say at this point, I think that M:I3 is the one I'm most pleased with (and that's while now being a fan of the show).

I agree. III did the best job of being true to the original, in most respects. (For one thing, it was the one film that made any subtantial use of "The Plot," the Lalo Schifrin musical motif that was an integral part of every episode's score.) However, I didn't like the way it, even more than the rest of the movies, turned the IMF into this massive government operation. It works against the feel of the original series, that this was a small, off-the-books operation being run out of a guy's apartment, recruiting actors and models and engineers and circus strongmen instead of professional agents, so that the government would have deniability for its actions.


It's a shame that a new Trek movie with an original cast would very likely have been less successful. It's hard for me to get excited about someone named Kirk being in the movie when I just can't find that essential Kirkness that Christopher talks about. I guess it's just a fundamental disagreement about what his most essential qualities are.

Well, that's the mark of a good character, isn't it? That he's complex enough that he's perceived differently by different people. Which means that no interpretation of the character is going to be universally liked. Me, I didn't much care for how TUC portrayed Kirk, and I thought TWOK bungled badly by having him claim he'd "never faced death."

So who knows? Maybe the next movie will develop Kirk in a way that will enable you to see more "Kirkness" in him. After all, this movie was the origin story, about getting him and the crew into place. In the next movie, they don't have to deal with all that and can go deeper into the characters.


Disappointed, but not surprised, right? Because the summer blockbuster is the obvious choice for people whose only concern is profit.

Everyone in a capitalist society has to be concerned with profit on some level. Ultimately, no matter how much you may be doing it for the love of the craft, no matter how much you wish you could tell a certain kind of story, you won't be able to tell that kind of story if you can't stay in business. And that imposes limits on what people are practically able to achieve in an expensive field like film or television. So it's rather unfair to assume that just because the people in charge have an obligation to try to make a profit, it means they have no concern for anything else.

The movie industry these days is built around blockbusters. Movies aren't allowed to have long runs and build audiences gradually; everything is judged by how it performs in its first week or two. And that puts pressure on the industry to concentrate on developing blockbusters. That means that anyone who was put in charge of Paramount Pictures would have an obligation to their employers, employees, and stockholders to develop blockbuster properties in order to avoid losing the competition with other studios and thereby losing their jobs.

So I think you're kind of getting the cause and effect backward. It's not that they decided to revive ST and figured they'd go with a blockbuster approach. It's that they needed to develop a new tentpole blockbuster franchise, and they decided that ST had the potential to become one.

And no matter what your opinion about blockbusters, that's a good thing for the franchise. Because it's disproven the myth that ST was dead, and it's brought new attention and profit to the franchise, and that's probably good for the prospects of new TV shows, books, comics, etc. The movies are what raise the profile and create the buzz for the rest.


Even when I was excited about the upcoming movie, and hoping it might have some depth to it, I knew it wasn't really going to be anything more than a big, explosive, action-fest.

I thought it had plenty of depth. The plot was full of logic holes, but I thought there was an effective focus on character and emotion, that the action beats served the emotional beats rather than vice-versa. Abrams has always been good at balancing intense action with character-driven storytelling. One of the reasons M:I:III is so much better than its predecessors is because it humanizes Ethan Hunt, gives him a life beyond the job, and makes his relationship with his fiancee/wife pivotal to the movie.

I mean, nothing shows this better than the Kelvin sequence. With all that big battle stuff going on, the real focus, of the script, the direction, the cinematography, the music, everything, is on the agonizing emotion of George and Winona leading up to the moment of Jim's birth. When I watched that sequence, I wasn't going "Gee whiz, look at all the bright explodey things," I was bawling my eyes out at the very human tragedy that the film clearly regarded as more important than the action.

And that's paralleled at the end. When Nero is finally defeated, the movie doesn't gloat over his fiery death and treat it as a triumph; rather, the music gets somber and elegiac and we're treated to a poignant close-up of a man who's lost everything and deserves our sympathy. That's just brilliant, emotion-driven filmmaking there, in the middle of intense, frenetic action. That's the work of a director who knows what's really important.


This is why I hate origin movies. The original series didn't have a two-hour pilot showing how everyone get there, and yet, people still watched it. It's another thing I don't understand about the average viewer, this driving need to have all the back-story meticulously explained. The writers aren't to blame, because they're giving the public what they want, but I, for one, don't understand why the public wants it. Not saying it's wrong, but it is very strange to me.

And yet the fans' hunger for origin stories has given us Enterprise: The First Adventure, Vulcan's Forge, Mike Barr's superb "All Those Years Ago..." annual from DC, Marvel's Early Voyages series, IDW's Crew, etc. It's not just viewers, it's readers.


This is just a bit of continuity-Spackle itself, but I have long held the idea that, after being the first ship to come back from a five-year mission relatively intact, Kirk and crew were mega-heroes, prompting Starfleet Command to juice them thoroughly for PR (which might as well also explain why all of Starfleet adopted the Enterprise delta as its logo).

This is the second time this week that's come up and I've had to debunk it. "Court-martial" showed a number of non-Enterprise personnel wearing the delta insignia (or arrowhead, as I prefer to call it), and VGR: "Friendship One" established it as a UESPA logo in use in 2067. Not to mention the new movie further debunking it by showing the Kelvin crew using the arrowhead in 2233.

Besides, the idea of Starfleet adopting one ship's logo to honor it is fannish and ridiculous. Wouldn't that be a huge insult to the valiant crews of all the other ships in the fleet? And I don't buy the idea that the E was the first ship to return intact from a 5-year mission, for one thing because I don't buy the unsupported assumption that 5-year missions are in any way standard. We have evidence that one ship had one 5-year mission. One data point is not evidence of a pattern. It's also a bad case of small-universe syndrome, the assumption that the events we were presented with on a television series were the only important things that happened in the entire universe.


So, by the time of TVH, forcing these galactic idols into early retirement would fall under that obscure but oft-used legal loophole, "celebrities are above the law."

We're talking about a military service here with responsibility for the security of the entire Federation. No matter how PR-obsessed they were, they wouldn't give responsibility for a starship capable of razing entire planets to a crew that had proven themselves capable of mutiny and piracy for bizarre personal reasons. They'd give the crew some jobs with a high public profile but no actual access to anything important or dangerous.


But yeah, while I wouldn't call it "a thousand times more believable," I'm sure nuKirk's promotion could be explained just as easily.

You're right. It's at least fifty thousand times more believable. :p
 
Well, that's the mark of a good character, isn't it? That he's complex enough that he's perceived differently by different people. Which means that no interpretation of the character is going to be universally liked. Me, I didn't much care for how TUC portrayed Kirk, and I thought TWOK bungled badly by having him claim he'd "never faced death."

So who knows? Maybe the next movie will develop Kirk in a way that will enable you to see more "Kirkness" in him. After all, this movie was the origin story, about getting him and the crew into place. In the next movie, they don't have to deal with all that and can go deeper into the characters.

That's entirely possible. However, I won't be seeing it opening night as I have every other Trek movie. I'll wait and see. Maybe even read some spoilers. My $10 won't make a difference to them but I'm sure I can find a book I'd like more if it appears that the sequel is more of the same.
 
Does anyone here seriously think that without that promotion to Captain (but without changing ANYTHING ELSE about the movie), the movie would have bombed at the B.O.?

I seriously doubt that.

Kirk could have taken off as Lieutenant to the Farragut (or whatever ship was left) because he finally recognized the importance of a command structure, he could have been First Officer aboard the Enterprise under Pike, with the promise of becoming Captain in the second movie, it wouldn't have changed anything about the success of the movie.

Or is there a study that I don't know anything about that says the last 5 minutes make or break a movie? May be so for movies in which the main character dies totally unexpected or in which there's a Se7en ending that makes you go "What the hell, stoopid muhwie?!", but not for movies like this.


I agree. III did the best job of being true to the original, in most respects. (For one thing, it was the one film that made any subtantial use of "The Plot," the Lalo Schifrin musical motif that was an integral part of every episode's score.) However, I didn't like the way it, even more than the rest of the movies, turned the IMF into this massive government operation. It works against the feel of the original series, that this was a small, off-the-books operation being run out of a guy's apartment, recruiting actors and models and engineers and circus strongmen instead of professional agents, so that the government would have deniability for its actions.
That was Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman turning Mission Impossible into a version of Alias with a male lead. The government operation, the family/girlfriend subplot, that shouldn't have had any business with a Mission Impossible story. They also had the silly "superintelligent but extremely nerdy" technician played by Pegg. In Alias that character was played by Kevin Weisman.

One of the reasons M:I:III is so much better than its predecessors is because it humanizes Ethan Hunt, gives him a life beyond the job, and makes his relationship with his fiancee/wife pivotal to the movie.
I thought exactly that was the worst thing about the movie. It's Mission: Impossible! The IMF agents never had a private life visible to the audience. It was the mission that mattered, not the character's private life.
 
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It's hard to say what the box office impact would have been, but what you describe makes for a much less satisfying ending. The movie had to end with the Big Seven and the Enterprise together, and Captain Kirk had to lead them. An ending that doesn't feel right will leave a bad impression with an audience on any kind of movie. There is simply no way that Kirk would have been in any other position than the one he was in at the conclusion of Star Trek.
 
It's hard to say what the box office impact would have been, but what you describe makes for a much less satisfying ending. The movie had to end with the Big Seven and the Enterprise together, and Captain Kirk had to lead them. An ending that doesn't feel right will leave a bad impression with an audience on any kind of movie. There is simply no way that Kirk would have been in any other position than the one he was in at the conclusion of Star Trek.

Is that fact or personal opinion?

I for one would have been fully satisfied with Kirk, who had been rebellious for the entire movie, coming to reason, accepting his commendation for original thinking or special medal for saving the world (there's your satisfying happy happy clap clap standing ovations scene) and then accepting his transfer to the Farragut. Before he departs, he tells Pike that three years from now, he's going to sit in his chair, and Pike replies "I'm sure about that.". And when the second movie is released 3 years later, Kirk is promoted to Captain right at the beginning.


I guess if someone rebooted Star Wars, then there is no other way than to have Luke Skywalker turn into a fully trained Jedi in the end, because that's what the public expects? There simply was no other way that after all the build up in the story that Luke would have been anything else than a Jedi at the conclusion of Star Wars?
 
The expected ending of a Star Wars (IV) reboot would be differrent than that of an origin of Star Trek film.
 
Of course it's personal opinion, but I can't imagine that many of the casual audience members that this movie was trying to attract accepting an ending where a now mythological figure like Kirk did not achieve his destiny at the end of this movie. The people who listen to Adam Sandler but had never before watched Star Trek at least know Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock (both Jewish!). Even as a longtime fan who knows the original path that Kirk took to his captaincy, I would not have been satisfied with an ending that had Kirk on the Farragut.

Luke is a different type of character than Kirk. He went on the hero's journey described by Joseph Campbell, which is something that Kirk, who started on television instead of movies, never did.
 
How come they can turn Starbuck and Boomer into women but can't have Kirk not becoming Captain by the end of the first new movie?

It's all a matter of opinion, there is no right or wrong about it. Both would have worked.
 
How come they can turn Starbuck and Boomer into women but can't have Kirk not becoming Captain by the end of the first new movie?

It's all a matter of opinion, there is no right or wrong about it. Both would have worked.

Ask most moviegoers (or television viewers, since BSG isn't a big-screen franchise) who Starbuck and Boomer are and they would have no idea. Ask them who James T. Kirk is and their response would most likely be something along the lines of, "You mean Captain Kirk?" So, there you go. I agree with you, of course, that it's a matter of opinion. How can it be otherwise when you're discussing a hypothetical alternative? And I actually wish they hadn't felt the need to end the movie with Kirk as captain. But I see why they did, and your Starbuck/Boomer analogy actually helped solidify that for me. People know who Captain Kirk is. So they ended the movie with him becoming Captain Kirk. That's what an origin story is for. Seeing the character you know become the character you know. Kirk being captain of the Enterprise is an intrinsic part of the character.
 
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