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Should novels set in the JJVerse rectify the film's plot holes?

^So what? How is another reboot bad as long as it's enjoyable?
Plays into the idea that reboot always equals bad. (as do sequels and remakes)

Why would anyone think sequels are always bad? It's kinda contradictory to say that someone thinks both reboots and sequels are always bad, because the bad thing about reboots is that they eliminate the possibility for more sequels (in that previous style). If the greater body of Star Trek fans (old and new) like Chris Pine et al., as directed by J. J. Abrams, then it would be unfortunate for those fans if that series weren't continued, in favor of other stars and directors. Who wants to see a whole new cast every ten years?
It's not that reboots are automatically bad, it's basically just "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." (Unfortunately, by Hollywood standards, "broke" is defined as "too expensive.")

I'm refering to the kneejerk reaction of "thats gonna suck" by some people when they hear ______ is going to have a sequel/remake/reboot. If the product is good,who cares?

I dont think the folks who greenlit ST09 were thinking Star Trek was too expensive as it was, so they decided to go the reboot route to save money. I think the budget for this film was higher than any since TMP.
 
I dont think the folks who greenlit ST09 were thinking Star Trek was too expensive as it was, so they decided to go the reboot route to save money. I think the budget for this film was higher than any since TMP.


Absolutely. This had nothing to do with old Trek being "too expensive" for some reason. It was all about revitalizing a franchise that, for better or for worse, the general public was losing interest in.

It's that simple.
 
In a way, I wouldn't mind that. Sometimes I think it's too limiting to have all screen Trek presented as a single consistent reality, with even the alternate timelines being part of the same multiverse. It might be more freeing if there were multiple totally unconnected interpretations of the Trek universe, as there are with Batman or Spider-Man or Sherlock Holmes.

But exactly that it what made Star Trek so great. That it's one consistent universe over 4 series, more than 24 seasons and 10 movies and a story spanning over 100 years.

No, that's not what made Star Trek so great. What made Star Trek so great was that it had compelling characters and good stories. Mostly consistent continuity was merely a plus.
 
That's right. Star Trek is not a consistent universe. It pretends to be, but it's constantly contradicting itself and either glossing over the contradictions or rationalizing them well after the fact.
 
In a way, I wouldn't mind that. Sometimes I think it's too limiting to have all screen Trek presented as a single consistent reality, with even the alternate timelines being part of the same multiverse. It might be more freeing if there were multiple totally unconnected interpretations of the Trek universe, as there are with Batman or Spider-Man or Sherlock Holmes.

But exactly that it what made Star Trek so great. That it's one consistent universe over 4 series, more than 24 seasons and 10 movies and a story spanning over 100 years.

No, that's not what made Star Trek so great. What made Star Trek so great was that it had compelling characters and good stories. Mostly consistent continuity was merely a plus.

I love how you disagree and agree in one sentence. Just to say something. I thought good stories and compelling characters were a given for a great show.

It pretends to be, but it's constantly contradicting itself

The existence of books like "The Star Trek Chronology", "The Star Trek Encyclopedia" and sites like Memory Alpha prove you wrong on that one. Star Trek is more consistent than it is inconsistent. Otherwise inconsistencies could not stick out like a sore thumb. Of course every time somebody creates a new inconsistency, old ones are cited to justify the screw ups. Which is a fantastic tactic. When I ignore a speed limit and get caught, I always say "but others did it before!". ;)

This had nothing to do with old Trek being "too expensive" for some reason. It was all about revitalizing a franchise that, for better or for worse, the general public was losing interest in.

Which in effect meant that a production of another season of Enterprise or another TNG movie was thought to cost more than it would gain. Hence, it was too expensive. :p
 
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This had nothing to do with old Trek being "too expensive" for some reason. It was all about revitalizing a franchise that, for better or for worse, the general public was losing interest in.

Which in effect meant that a production of another season of Enterprise or another TNG movie was thought to cost more than it would gain. Hence, it was too expensive. :p

I suppose that's one way to look at it. But it's not like they cancelled the NextGen movies because the old cast was asking for too much money or something, or that spending a fortune on a huge summer blockbuster version of STAR TREK was somehow cheaper than doing another relatively low-budget NextGen flick.

It's more like they thought another TNG movie would be unprofitable. Which is probably a better choice of words.

Describing it as a budget move is kind of misleading. The real answer was that the franchise was in a slump and Paramount gambled that a reboot would turn things around.

Turns out that was a good call.
 
But exactly that it what made Star Trek so great. That it's one consistent universe over 4 series, more than 24 seasons and 10 movies and a story spanning over 100 years.

No, that's not what made Star Trek so great. What made Star Trek so great was that it had compelling characters and good stories. Mostly consistent continuity was merely a plus.

I love how you disagree and agree in one sentence. Just to say something. I thought good stories and compelling characters were a given for a great show.

No, according to you, being great was a matter of having consistent continuity over many installments. But that has NOTHING to do with being great. It can be fun, but it is NOT what made Star Trek great.

It pretends to be, but it's constantly contradicting itself

The existence of books like "The Star Trek Chronology", "The Star Trek Encyclopedia" and sites like Memory Alpha prove you wrong on that one. Star Trek is more consistent than it is inconsistent.

Having more instances of consistent continuity references than instances of discontinuity does NOT mean that Star Trek has consistent continuity. It has most consistent continuity, but ST has always had plenty of inconsistencies. James R. Kirk? The Enterprise going to the edge of the galaxy multiple times? The Klingon homeworld being however far away the story needed it to be? Anti-matter destroying the universe? The center of the galaxy being two hours away? McCoy talking about how the Vulcans were conquered? Vulcans vs. Vulcanians? Vulcan having no moon? The Eugenics Wars vs. World War III?
 
Having more instances of consistent continuity references than instances of discontinuity does NOT mean that Star Trek has consistent continuity. It has most consistent continuity, but ST has always had plenty of inconsistencies. James R. Kirk? The Enterprise going to the edge of the galaxy multiple times? The Klingon homeworld being however far away the story needed it to be? Anti-matter destroying the universe? The center of the galaxy being two hours away? McCoy talking about how the Vulcans were conquered? Vulcans vs. Vulcanians? Vulcan having no moon? The Eugenics Wars vs. World War III?

Oh, you're only speaking of TOS. Well, that explains some things. And then, James R. Kirk was only one instance. 78 other episodes, 7 movies and several other episodes disagree with it. Same goes for the other stuff you listed. And that is my point: all those inconsistencies are special occasions and not the norm.

No, according to you, being great was a matter of having consistent continuity over many installments. But that has NOTHING to do with being great. It can be fun, but it is NOT what made Star Trek great.

No, according to me a) continuity is what was so great/special about Star Trek and b) great stories and compelling characters are a given.
 
So if you radically break continuity but only do it once, it's a "special occasion"?

By that standard I could argue that any instance in Trek '09 that someone wants to claim is a break with consistency is actually a "special occasion".

And given that the majority of '09 occurs in an AU, perhaps we should wait to see whether the AU itself is consistent before judging.
 
So if you radically break continuity but only do it once, it's a "special occasion"?

By that standard I could argue that any instance in Trek '09 that someone wants to claim is a break with consistency is actually a "special occasion".

And given that the majority of '09 occurs in an AU, perhaps we should wait to see whether the AU itself is consistent before judging.

See, when did the James R. Kirk thing happen? Right in the beginning. But then, there was 40 years of James T. Kirk following on that one. If you want to be precise, "James T. Kirk" is actually the mistake, but everyone settled for it. Same goes for Data being an emotionless android. There's one episode somewhere right in the beginning of the first season where he isn't. But 175 other episodes, he is.

So the Enterprise had 78 decks and travelled in two days to the center of the galaxy? Nowhere was it ever mentioned again. So it didn't have any effects on anything.

And the same goes for most mistakes made.



The AU already achieved to be inconsistent in itself in only one movie, which is another point. See lots of discussions in the Trek XI forum on that one.



LOL, and I think both of you have totally missed the point. The new movie is a reboot, which means that the old continuity is completely broken. Christopher said that he find such a thing refreshing, and I said I disagreed with him because I think that this grand continuity over several shows and movies made the whole thing special. That's the point. What you're doing now is to narrow-mindedly poke at my posts just to disagree with me.
 
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Having more instances of consistent continuity references than instances of discontinuity does NOT mean that Star Trek has consistent continuity. It has most consistent continuity, but ST has always had plenty of inconsistencies. James R. Kirk? The Enterprise going to the edge of the galaxy multiple times? The Klingon homeworld being however far away the story needed it to be? Anti-matter destroying the universe? The center of the galaxy being two hours away? McCoy talking about how the Vulcans were conquered? Vulcans vs. Vulcanians? Vulcan having no moon? The Eugenics Wars vs. World War III?

Oh, you're only speaking of TOS.

No, I only included TOS examples to demonstrate that Trek has had discontinuities from the very beginning. This has been a consistent part of ST, and it's silly to pretend that the discontinuities found in ST09 are somehow without precedent or much worse than previous discontinuities.

No, according to you, being great was a matter of having consistent continuity over many installments. But that has NOTHING to do with being great. It can be fun, but it is NOT what made Star Trek great.

No, according to me a) continuity is what was so great/special about Star Trek and b) great stories and compelling characters are a given.

That is not what you said. This is what you said:

But exactly that it what made Star Trek so great. That it's one consistent universe over 4 series, more than 24 seasons and 10 movies and a story spanning over 100 years.

There is no reference whatsoever to quality writing or characterization in what you said.

And in any event, once again, the presence or absence of mostly consistent continuity over many installments is irrelevant to whether or not a given franchise is great. Batman has huge discontinuities all over the place; this does not mean that The Dark Knight was not a brilliant film. Etc.

The presence of mostly consistent continuity in ST is not at all what made it great. It was irrelevant to ST's greatness.
 
Continuity is a virtue. But it's not the only virtue, or even the most important one.

IMHO.
 
No version of Star Trek has ever had the great internal consistency that it's frequently credited with. It's done a great job over the years of presenting the illusion of consistancy, but an illusion is all it is. It takes the viewer suspending disbelief to make it work.

The people who claim "STXI is all wrong and TOS isn't" have been glossing over the broken canon of Trek for so long they actually believe it fits together. It doesn't.

All that's happening is that those who hate STXI are refusing to suspend disbelief this time.
 
Sci, what the hell are you actually trying to do? To disagree with me that TNG is in the same continuity as TOS, DS9 in the same continuity as TNG, and VOY in the same continuity as DS9, and that all the shows have been constantly referencing each other?

What you are argueing about is not what I initially meant, so it's entirely pointless. :wtf:

Christopher said he likes the fresh air of reboots, and I disagreed with him, citing the great thing about the continuity of Star Trek and Stargate as examples. The funny thing is that as of yet he didn't say anything, but I'm forced to argue with someone else about stuff I didn't even mean to argue about.
 
As I said, ST pretends to have a consistent continuity. But each new version is a fresh interpretation. TMP pretended Klingons had always been ridged, and changed Starfleet design and technology far more completely than it could ever realistically change in just three or four years, but it pretended it was still a continuation of the original series. TWOK contradicted the hell out of "Space Seed" and TOS, changing the age and ethnicity of Khan's followers, retconning Chekov onto the first-season crew, making Starfleet more military and more retro overall, etc., but it still pretended to be a sequel to the episode. And so on. TNG was an attempt at a radical reinvention of the universe, and Roddenberry even considered much of TOS to be apocryphal at that point and wanted to go in different directions. For much of TNG's run, the pretense that it was in the same reality as TOS was superficial at best, and in terms of stories, concepts, and style, it could almost have been a wholesale reboot. It was only later that more of the production staff came to be made up of lifelong Trekkies who wanted to tie it all together more closely and bring back more old elements into the new.

Lots of fictional franchises do the same thing -- pretending continuity while actually making constant changes. Doctor Who in its original incarnation was very fast and loose with internal consistency, and the new series is very revisionist in many ways even while pretending to be in the same reality. Marvel Comics are constantly retconning their heroes' origins into the more recent past yet pretending the entire decades-long history represents a consistent whole, so that the same Spider-Man who appeared on Ed Sullivan and went to the premiere of ST:TMP with his college buddies is still in his mid-20s in the year 2010.

Continuity details like dates and events and technologies and so forth are really beside the point. What matters is that the different Trek shows represent many different interpretations of the universe, many different creative voices and tones and attitudes. The ST of Roddenberry and Coon, the ST of Freiberger, of Fontana, Scheimer, and Prescott, of Wise, of Bennett and Meyer, of Berman and Piller, of Behr, of Taylor, of Braga, of Coto -- they're all different shows, different voices, different storytelling styles, even if they recycle a shared syntax.

Sure, a lot of the time, the crossover elements have had value or at least provided entertainment. But each incarnation could've existed on its own without so much crossover. In fact, fans often complained about the crossover elements. Back in '87, viewers were upset when the new TNG, a show which had promised to make a fresh start and stand on its own, gave them a sequel to "The Naked Time" as its very second episode. And Enterprise viewers complained about the Ferengi and Borg episodes. Clearly continuity is not always considered a strength of the Trek universe.

TNG got along just fine with minimal references to what came before. DS9 was built around concepts and races introduced in TNG episodes, but the saga it ended up telling stood very much on its own. VGR was off in a whole other quadrant of the galaxy, ENT in an earlier century. They were all designed to be pretty much independent despite their shared background. And any one of these shows could've had more freedom without that shared background. DS9 couldn't really cut loose with a quadrant-shaking war until TNG had gone off the air; imagine how much more they could've done to shake things up if they hadn't had that limit. Imagine how much more liberated ENT would've been if it hadn't had to mesh with the future we knew was coming (and to this day, there are still fans who believe it created an alternate one anyway).
 
As I said, ST pretends to have a consistent continuity. But each new version is a fresh interpretation. TMP pretended Klingons had always been ridged, and changed Starfleet design and technology far more completely than it could ever realistically change in just three or four years, but it pretended it was still a continuation of the original series. TWOK contradicted the hell out of "Space Seed" and TOS, changing the age and ethnicity of Khan's followers, retconning Chekov onto the first-season crew, making Starfleet more military and more retro overall, etc., but it still pretended to be a sequel to the episode. And so on. TNG was an attempt at a radical reinvention of the universe, and Roddenberry even considered much of TOS to be apocryphal at that point and wanted to go in different directions. For much of TNG's run, the pretense that it was in the same reality as TOS was superficial at best, and in terms of stories, concepts, and style, it could almost have been a wholesale reboot. It was only later that more of the production staff came to be made up of lifelong Trekkies who wanted to tie it all together more closely and bring back more old elements into the new.

And my point is: I like this pretended continuity better than reboots, that's all I was saying.

Imagine how much more liberated ENT would've been if it hadn't had to mesh with the future we knew was coming (and to this day, there are still fans who believe it created an alternate one anyway).

That's true, although ENT had many self made problems. First of all, it wouldn't have had any problems with continuity had it been a sequel, let's say in the early 25th century. What story was there that could have only been told in the 22nd century? The pilot surely not. The Xindi and Temporal Cold War arc didn't need that timeframe either. And some of the season 4 episodes were only done to explain a couple of the screw ups from the first seasons. The moment they beamed Archer out of danger in the very first episode the show became yet another TNG spin off stylewise and storywise, only with the problem that is was supposed to be a prequel to everything, which made it inconsistent by default.
 
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I suspecting we're just repeating ourselves here (which tends to happen when the new movie is discussed). The point is, the old continuity is irrrelevant as far as the new books are concerned, so any attempt to make nuTrek books more consistent with the old continuity--by explaining that "Bones" means "sawbones," damnit!--would defeat the purpose.

We can stick to the old continuity in the Prime Universe books, while still making the nuTrek books as much like the new movie as possible.

(Note how I "subtly" attempt to steer the thread back to the original topic, instead of just debating the pros and cons of the reboot for the umpteenth time.)
 
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My point is, it's unrealistic to begin with for a film set 300 years in the future to show characters speaking recognizable modern American English at all. More realistically, they'd be speaking some future variant of English that would sound as strange to us as Shakespearean English does,

Nearly completely understandable? :p (Adjusting for Shakespeare's non-realist style, of course.) English has been pretty lexically and grammatically stable since the early modern period.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that languages, at least the world languages, will remain stable for far longer than language in the past, because of the advancement in recording technologies that--I believe not coincidentally--came around the end of English's early modern period. This isn't a universally shared view.

I also don't see the other world languages encroaching upon English to the extent that Mandarin, Hindi, or Russian loan words would be particularly noticeable. I mean, off the top of my head, I can only think of a few Slavic terms in really wide currency at all--vodka, gulag, bolshevik, robot--which illustrate that English usually only incorporates words into general currency when they represent concepts not represented in English or not represented well by English, which is a rare occurrence in a language that already has over 500,000 words. We're not going to start calling books knigi or listening to Akon-9's smash single "I Khochu Yebat You."

Maybe I'm underestimating the concepts English doesn't, but other languages do, have words for... and there is the whole "World War III/collapse of American civilization" angle that I'm ignoring.

But while we're on the subject, regarding English's (admittedly marvelous) capacity to absorb foreign words for special purposes, I do wish more Trek authors would employ that convention and stop italicizing alien words that are likely to have been, long before the setting of their stories, taken into the lexicon. I think the names of the Andorian sexes, for example, would be generally current because English--and presumably most other languages--can't represent the concepts except awkwardly, and would very readily adopt the Andorian terms, without needing to hit control-I so that everyone's sure it's foreign. Food items, too--does anyone italicize burrito, lasagna, chow fun, sushi, etc.?

As I said, ST pretends to have a consistent continuity[...]

snip
This I wholeheartedly agree with. There's nothing at all intrinsically wrong with the soft reboot of the retcon.
 
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More realistically, they'd be speaking some future variant of English that would sound as strange to us as Shakespearean English does,

Nearly completely understandable? :p English has been remarkably lexically and grammatically stable since the early modern period.

In general, yes, but not where vernacular usage is concerned. And a lot more of the vocabulary has shifted meaning since Shakespeare's day than we tend to realize. (For instance, in "Thus conscience does make cowards of us all," "conscience" didn't mean a moral sense, but contemplation or introspection.)


Of course, I'm of the opinion that languages, at least the world languages, will remain stable for far longer than language in the past, because of the advancement in recording technologies that--I believe not coincidentally--came around the end of English's early modern period. This isn't a universally shared view.

To an extent, yes. Spelling has certainly become more standardized since dictionaries came along. But pronunciation has continued to evolve, which is why so many words have spellings that seem strange to us today. And usage continues to shift, dialects continue to mutate, etc. Most people learn language and usage more from everyday life than they do from books. True, audio recording technology has probably slowed the mutation of spoken language to an extent, at least where pronunciation is concerned, but I don't think it's had much effect on vocabulary.


I also don't see the other world languages encroaching upon English to the extent that Mandarin, Hindi, or Russian loan words would be particularly noticeable. I mean, off the top of my head, I can only think of a few Slavic terms in really wide currency at all--vodka, gulag, bolshevik, robot--which illustrate that English usually only incorporates words into general currency when they represent concepts not represented in English or not represented well by English, which is a rare occurrence in a language that already has over 500,000 words.

Not always. There's a slang term that was in vogue for a while and maybe still is in some places, "a skosh," meaning "a little." It's a corruption of the Japanese word sukoshii, meaning "few." There are plenty of English words representing the concept -- a little, a bit, a touch, a tad, and so on -- but that bit of Japanese slang still snuck in. As I said, most people get vocabulary from their day-to-day interactions in life, not from textbooks. And the more eclectic the community becomes, the more exotic phrases people are going to hear on a daily basis. People who grow up in bilingual communities invent pidgin hybrids that eventually develop into full-blown creole languages. Heck, English itself is basically a Germanic-Romance creole at its root. So if the humanity of ST's future is really as multicultural as it's claimed to be, it should have a more heavily hybridized language than it does. Heck, by the 24th century there should be countless Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite loan words and grammatical features in Federation Standard.
 
Slang's a whole different issue, though. 16th century slang wouldn't be in many instances intelligible.

Here's a good passage that shows how unrecognizable slang and recognizable language aren't mutually exclusive propositions:

Sir Jon Harington said:
There was a very tall and seruicable gentleman, somtime Lieutenant of the ordinance, called M. Iaques Wingfield; who coming one day, either of businesse, or of kindnesse, to visit a great Ladie in the Court' the Ladie bad her Gentlewoman aske, which of the Wingfields it was, he told her Iaques Wingfield: the modest gentlewoman, that was not so well seene in the French, as to know that Iaques, was but Iames in English, was so bashfoole, that to mend the matter (as she thought) she brought her Ladie word, not without blushing, that it was M. Priuie Wingfield; at which, I suppose, the Lady then, I am sure the Gentleman after, as long as he liued, was wont to make great sport.

Now, I can read this just fine, with the exception of actually getting the joke without resorting to contextual reading and thus ruining the punchline.

The joke is that jakes is (was) a very strong word for privy, roughly along the lines of "shit room," I guess. (It's from Harington's The Metamorphosis of Ajax--get it? Indeed, it's also possible I don't find this particularly humorous because the joke sucks.) But jakes is a 1500s slang term, and the slang is always mutable, and it's humor is often lost over the course of years or decades--forget centuries.

But most of us don't speak exclusively or even predominately in slang; and, besides making the meaning less clear to the contemporary audience (23d century audiences don't pay the bills), predicting slang is usually one of the most arbitrary things an SF writer or a general futurist could spend their energy on. It's unlikely to be correct, and often smacks of trying too hard to world-build.

On the other hand, in limited amounts, it does serve an immersive purpose ("skinjobs," for example, is great invective; "frak" by contrast is a lame euphemism for an existing expletive, and really depends on the actor to sell it; of course one of those was coined by Blade Runner). It may actually say some unpleasant things about the human condition, however, that the more believable slang terms in SF are racial epithets.:confused:

So if the humanity of ST's future is really as multicultural as it's claimed to be, it should have a more heavily hybridized language than it does. Heck, by the 24th century there should be countless Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite loan words and grammatical features in Federation Standard.
Fed Standard is kinda one of those fanon concepts, iirc, whereas English as a language is referenced, and as far as we can trust our eyes, is used in signage and is the official language of Starfleet (at least the Roman alphabet is the official script!).

There's also the question of UTs--which work preposterously but assuming it works, we can predict some effects. Universal translation being universally available is likely going to tremendously diminish the value of being polyglot, leading to fewer avenues by which languages cross-pollinate each others' vocabularies.

All the same, yeah, I could see where you're coming from on that more than with human languages. The bulk of them would probably be native animals, foods, and inhuman acts such as the Vulcan neck pinch or Andorian coitus. And, of course, we always like a skosh of new slang.
 
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