Should Kylo Ren have picked a better Sith to idolize?

[Turd Ferguson]

Don't get me wrong. I think Darth Vader is one of the baddest of the badasses. Definitely my number three after Darth Sidious and Agent Smith in terms of movie villains. He's smooth enough to deflect Han Solo's blaster bolts and makes his subordinates shit their pants at the thoughts of failing him.

However, looking at his accomplishments in comparison to other Sith Lords, he leaves a little to be desired. Check these out:

Darth Bane: Pretty much wipes out all kinds of Jedi and the entire Sith order, restructuring it into the rule of two organization that is observed up until Sidious is chucked down a chasm by Darth Vader.

Darth Plagueis: Master of life and death. He can create life from the midi-chlorians and can even keep people he cares about from dying. Also trains Darth Sidious, the Sith that finally overthrows both the Jedi and the Republic.

Darth Sidious: Becomes a master politician, brings an end to both the Galactic Republic and the Jedi Order AND convinces the entire galaxy to give its control over to him, no questions asked. He pretty much accomplishes in a little over 13 years what no Sith has been able to accomplish since Darth Bane.

So, my question is, looking at these accomplishments and achievements, the Sith Order has several inductees that qualify as badasses at their craft. So, why does young Ben Solo, aka Kylo Ren, decide to idolize Darth Vader? The simple answer is it's because Vader is his grandfather. But, as a Sith, his accomplishments are pretty lackluster. In fact, Vader pretty much fucks up everything he attempts.

You can't really credit him with wiping out the Jedi. The majority of them were wiped out with Palpatine's issuance of Order 66. The Clonetroopers wiped out the majority of the Jedi in the Temple, leaving Anakin and his lightsaber to cut down the younglings. Really , the only Jedi we see Vader kill on screen is Obi-Wan, and that's because Obi-Wan let him kill him. So, Vader sucked as a Jedi.

Vader also sucks as a Sith. After fucking up a vertical leap to cut down Obi-Wan on Mustafar, Vader becomes confined to a walking iron lung, which rules out any possibility of learning advanced Dark Side techniques like Force Lightning. So, he essentially becomes a yes man for Palpatine for the next twenty years. Then, in the ultimate fuckup for the Sith, he chucks the only other one off a ledge, effectively wiping the order out in the process.

So, as we can see, Anakin Skywalker aka Darth Vader wasn't a particularly good Jedi. He also wasn't a particularly good Sith, either. So, what was it about Vader that made Kylo Ren idolize him above all the others?

 

[Draculasaurus]

It's 'cause all his midichlorians leaked out when Obi-Wan cut off his legs.
It's not his fault. Anyway, none of those other guys ever force choked Admiral Motti, who has the strongest neck in the universe, probably.

 

[Ithekro]

Well Darth Vader has an advantage....he's family.

 

[Mage]

It's 'cause all his midichlorians leaked out when Obi-Wan cut off his legs.
It's not his fault. Anyway, none of those other guys ever force choked Admiral Motti, who has the strongest neck in the universe, probably.

One of the most legit posts I've read in a long, long time!

 

[The Wormhole]

Well Darth Vader has an advantage....he's family.

Bingo, Kylo Ren idolizes Vader because Vader's his grandfather. And why not rest on the laurels of having a grandpa who was second only to the Emperor of the old Empire?

 

[Reverend]

Plus one imagines that solid information on any other Sith is going to be pretty hard to come by. It seems right up until the end, Palpatine kept his true nature secret from all but a small inner circle. The same appears to be true of Dooku/Tyranus. Maul was always a ghost, even before striking out on his own.
The names and exploits of Plagueis and his predecessors all the way back to Bane are probably only known to their inheritors, a line that ended with Sidious. One imagines he probably didn't leave that information in the Imperial datanet for just anyone to find, so it's either all lost or still locked up in some secret vault somewhere.

Vader is pretty much the most famous Sith Lord in recent history and any others are more like mythical figures. Not exactly attainable role models.

 

[The Wormhole]

It seems right up until the end, Palpatine kept his true nature secret from all but a small inner circle.

Indeed. According to the novel Lords of the Sith (which is allegedly canon since it was supervised by the Story Group) the only ones Palpatine allows to know he's a Sith are Vader (who doesn't have a rich social life, so isn't going to tell anyone) and the Red Guards (who are sworn to secrecy).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Vader is pretty much the most famous Sith Lord in recent history and any others are more like mythical figures. Not exactly attainable role models.

That, and in the movies, Vader has been a feared, "magical" agent of the Emperor for years--the public face of the Sith & Empire (a status Maul & Dooku never reached), so that--and Ren's blood connection--makes Vader God-like in his eyes. Who else would dig up a charred helmet of a relative, and speak to it, as if connecting with a spirit?

 

[Set Harth]

Indeed. According to the novel Lords of the Sith (which is allegedly canon since it was supervised by the Story Group) the only ones Palpatine allows to know he's a Sith are Vader (who doesn't have a rich social life, so isn't going to tell anyone) and the Red Guards (who are sworn to secrecy).

Interesting... the ROTS novelization had Palpatine all but admitting it in his dialogue with "the posse", which was recorded and played to the Senate prior to the declaration of the Empire.

So maybe that's been overruled by Lords of the Sith, which would be fine with me. I always thought Palpatine's Sith status becoming common knowledge was an error. ( Come to think of it, I suppose it could have been argued that the novelization's version of events was invalid due to the fact that it does not match the film. )

 

[DonIago]

One thing I never understood is exactly on what grounds the Jedi were planning to arrest Palpatine. I mean, make no mistake, I think from a moral standpoint they were doing the right thing, but is merely being a Sith illegal or something? Do the Jedi have the broad legal authority to arrest someone simply because they want to (which ironically sounds more like a Sith thing to do)? And assuming they had successfully arrested Palpatine, what were they going to do with him afterward?

You would also think that before Mace and the cannon fodder left for Papatine's office they would have told -someone- what was going on. Someone who wasn't a total headcase like Anakin, perhaps.

I really don't feel like the Jedi or the Senate is given enough credit in the prequels. The whole situation in Palpatine's office is just a total cluster-cuss.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One thing I never understood is exactly on what grounds the Jedi were planning to arrest Palpatine. I mean, make no mistake, I think from a moral standpoint they were doing the right thing, but is merely being a Sith illegal or something? Do the Jedi have the broad legal authority to arrest someone simply because they want to (which ironically sounds more like a Sith thing to do)? And assuming they had successfully arrested Palpatine, what were they going to do with him afterward?

You would also think that before Mace and the cannon fodder left for Papatine's office they would have told -someone- what was going on. Someone who wasn't a total headcase like Anakin, perhaps.

I really don't feel like the Jedi or the Senate is given enough credit in the prequels. The whole situation in Palpatine's office is just a total cluster-cuss.

How about treason against the Republic for orchestrating the war against her?

 

[DonIago]

Did the Jedi have actual proof of that?

I mean, obviously we all know it was true, but I don't think it's ever spelled out in the movies that our heroes have figured it out.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Did the Jedi have actual proof of that?

I mean, obviously we all know it was true, but I don't think it's ever spelled out in the movies that our heroes have figured it out.

Anakin told Mace that he had discovered it.

 

[Ithekro]

They had evidence that the Sith Lord was running the Seperatist's war against the Republic. They just could not find this Sith Lord. With Anakin's word and other problems, Palpatine was going to be arrested for treason against the Republic. They were going to take hi before the Senate for hearings and the like, but with Palpatine killing three Jedi Masters and keeping Mace Windu at arms length, Mace decided the old Sith Lord was too powerful to let live, nor could be be sure Palpatine wouldn't just walk away from the trail with no one to stop him, since Mace could barely hold the Sith Lord, and that was getting the Jedi on the edge of the Dark Side to do it.

 

[Reverend]

Indeed. According to the novel Lords of the Sith (which is allegedly canon since it was supervised by the Story Group) the only ones Palpatine allows to know he's a Sith are Vader (who doesn't have a rich social life, so isn't going to tell anyone) and the Red Guards (who are sworn to secrecy).

Pretty sure Mas Amedda and Sly Moore are in on it too. They've been right by his side since he took power and apparently Amedda later became the Imperial Grand Vizier, which makes him pretty much the second most powerful person in the galaxy in terms of political and bureaucratic influence and he's probably the one actually running to day-to-day affairs of the Empire. I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of those declaring himself Emperor after Endor.

I do wonder how much the Inquisitors know too. If I had to guess I'd say the Grand Inquisitor knew of Sidious, but the others only knew of Vader.

That, and in the movies, Vader has been a feared, "magical" agent of the Emperor for years--the public face of the Sith & Empire (a status Maul & Dooku never reached), so that--and Ren's blood connection--makes Vader God-like in his eyes. Who else would dig up a charred helmet of a relative, and speak to it, as if connecting with a spirit?

I'm a bit sceptical that the galaxy at large were even aware Vader existed. Clearly he was known by those at the higher levels of government, in the military and of course the Rebel Alliance fighters (though not until he showed up on Lothal, as we saw on 'Rebels') However I doubt he was featured at all in Imperial propaganda. There were almost certainly all kinds of rumours and horror stories floating around the general populous, but nothing official.
Rebel propaganda on the other hand probably did feature him quite prominently, one assumes thanks in part to Sabine.

Either way, I imagine he became a lot more famous *after* his death. With the Alliance now out in the open and the Imperials on the run, stories of Imperial atrocities would be moving a lot more freely. One assumes the Alliance-come-New Republic held war crimes tribunals in which one would think Vader featured prominently.

Which leads up back to how Ben Solo first learned of him.

 

[Set Harth]

Pretty sure Mas Amedda and Sly Moore are in on it too.

Oh yeah, you can tell that's true in Mas' case, just from his behavior and his presence in ROTS at a certain point.

However I doubt he was featured at all in Imperial propaganda.

So I guess that means this isn't official?

 

[Draculasaurus]

I think Darth Vader was definitely a public figure to some extent.
Just look at his first interaction with Leia.
She says "Darth Vader; Only you could be so bold." and remember at this point she's pretending to be a regular senator, not a Rebel.
Then Darth Vader is like "You weren't on any mercy mission this time."
It's pretty plain that any Galactic Senator would know Vader on sight and be aware of his reputation as an Imperial enforcer. It just seems like they've been around each other professionally.

 

[Reverend]

^As I said, I'm sure the upper levels of government are well aware, if only by reputation. That includes Imperial senators. And yeah, it's clear from Leia's interactions with both Vader & Tarkin that she's run across them before.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Nowadays, any time a prominent political figure falls from grace, stuff about his or her past comes to light. I'm sure after Palpatine was thrown into the Death Star II by Vader that all kinds of things came out. I would imagine one of the first things the Rebellion would reveal would be Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious, architect of the Clone Wars and the fall of the Jedi Order and the Old Republic (corroborated by Luke Skywalker). Of course, all this could be construed as Rebel propaganda to try to sway the Imperial remnants to throw down their arms and join the New Republic.

I'm sure the galaxy at large doesn't give two shits about who's in charge, whether it be a democratically elected Republic with the backing of the Jedi Council or an evil Galactic Empire with the enforcement of a Dark Lord of the Sith (as long as Joe Citizen doesn't get entangled with the Jedi or the Sith).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think Darth Vader was definitely a public figure to some extent.
Just look at his first interaction with Leia.
She says "Darth Vader; Only you could be so bold." and remember at this point she's pretending to be a regular senator, not a Rebel.
Then Darth Vader is like "You weren't on any mercy mission this time."
It's pretty plain that any Galactic Senator would know Vader on sight and be aware of his reputation as an Imperial enforcer. It just seems like they've been around each other professionally.

^As I said, I'm sure the upper levels of government are well aware, if only by reputation. That includes Imperial senators. And yeah, it's clear from Leia's interactions with both Vader & Tarkin that she's run across them before.

I think the point Draculasaurus is making is to think of a real world parallel: high profile (particularly violent and/or feared) members of a militant and/or political organization are known by the general public. For example, Bin Laden and many of his top associates became names/faces known to the general public worldwide--their actions and whatever character details anything but some vague idea, but a face and aura of a movement. In this way, the ANH dialogue suggests Vader is on that level, and if the prequels were worth anything, it was that it established that Sith apprentices are not shy about making their presence known. The difference here is that unlike Maul & Dooku, who were part of false counter movements, Vader is an official representative of the galaxy's controlling government, and I doubt he was sitting around in the shadows during the period of imperial expansion / enforcement (the 2 decades before ANH).

So, I believe in addition to the family connection to a legendary fallen Jedi turned conquering Sith Lord, Vader had a large reputation any aspiring dark side master (Ren) would idolize / study.