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Should JMS be given credit with Behr, Berman, Piller, Moore etc

TheMasterOfOrion

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I never was a fan of Babylon-5 back in its day, I got to see a few episodes I knew there could be the bones of a good series there but it never really hooked me. A few years ago I got my hands on the DVDs watched them in order and the fantastic story telling blew me away, the B5 actors were great but I think DS9' actors did a better job but I finally understood why so many people think DS9 spent a lot of time 'borrowing' from B5. JMS often stated he wanted to tell an epic story like Frank Herbert but with the charm we see in the characters of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek. However when you look at all the Star Trek DS9 books, Dvds and magazines most of the time they try to avoid the Babylon-5 link like the plague. By trying to sweep the whole connection under the carpet or constantly avoiding the subject they only add more weight to the accusation that Behr, Moore, Berman etc did spend a lot of time developing borrowed ideas from the series created by JMS. Straczynski was frank about the originality of his own work, but was casual when it came to other shows that 'borrowed', he had no intention of blocking another show by legal means. All he wanted was to create his own scifi show and was happy Warner Bros not Paramount gave him this opportunity. J. Michael Straczynski always gave credit to science fiction like Dune and the original Trek.
 
No. First, let me say I love both shows. Similarities aside, the shows are two different entities. What are the biggest connections in the show: a stationary setting, both leads have lost someone in their past (one can argue that B5 ripped that from DS9 as it appeared after Sheridan joined the cast in the second season), both stations got ships in the third season and there was a heavy focus on war.

That's about it.

If you use that logic then any show with a starship with over a hundred people on it and travel faster than light should credit Gene Roddenberry.
 
DS9 never "borrowed" or stole anything from Babylon 5. Contrary to popular belief, JMS did not invent story arcs or telling an epic story in a TV series, nor did he invent space stations.

None of the DS9 makers owe JMS any credit because what they created is 100% irrelevant to the existence of Babylon 5.

They don't always avoid the subject, either. When asked directly, Moore and Wolfe have both said that they don't watch Babylon 5, and Wolfe added that he resents the DS9 makers being accused of plagiarism by JMS which is why he refuses to watch it.

The reason they "avoid" the subject most of the time is because there is no connection. Why would they spontaneously talk about something that doesn't exist. They often aren't even asked about it, because there isn't much to ask about.

Had JMS tried to "block" DS9 by legal means, he would have lost the lawsuit since it would have had no merit. Which IMO is precisely the reason why he never would have tried.
 
All fiction is pretty much derivative. With TNG on television at the same, there was only one way for a companion show to be different, do the opposite of exploration and travel and stay in one place. Wasn't DS9 basically Gunsmoke to TOS/TNG's Wagon Train? I tend to think great minds thought alike in the early 90's and the end result developed similarities naturally as the writers dug deeper into the setting. What I appreciated about Babylon 5 was almost unthinkable in the Gene Roddenberry universe, the corruption linked to Earth and it's leaders, characters who broke away from their military duty and actively got involved in civil war. Hard to imagine Sisko and crew quitting Starfleet, standing alone (or siding with the Bajorans) against the Cardassians or the Dominion. Without hundreds of officers, fleets of ships, the station wouldn't have stood a chance... so for all it's praise about being a different kind of Trek, Deep Space Nine is still about establishment through and through. Not that it doesn't deserve all that mind you.
 
Thinking about this further, it is eerie sometimes how studios will develop TV/Film along similar lines, almost at the same time. It's not really a question of whether you preferred Airwolf to Blue Thunder... sometimes there's plenty of room for both. But that certainly doesn't stop fans imagining who would come off better in a confrontation!
 
All fiction is pretty much derivative. With TNG on television at the same, there was only one way for a companion show to be different, do the opposite of exploration and travel and stay in one place. Wasn't DS9 basically Gunsmoke to TOS/TNG's Wagon Train? I tend to think great minds thought alike in the early 90's and the end result developed similarities naturally as the writers dug deeper into the setting. What I appreciated about Babylon 5 was almost unthinkable in the Gene Roddenberry universe, the corruption linked to Earth and it's leaders, characters who broke away from their military duty and actively got involved in civil war. Hard to imagine Sisko and crew quitting Starfleet, standing alone (or siding with the Bajorans) against the Cardassians or the Dominion. Without hundreds of officers, fleets of ships, the station wouldn't have stood a chance... so for all it's praise about being a different kind of Trek, Deep Space Nine is still about establishment through and through. Not that it doesn't deserve all that mind you.


DS9 sort of tried that scenario in a roundabout way, though. with Dukat and Return to Grace. and of course it didn't go anywhere.
 
Despite all of the lengthy, eloquent answers, indranee put it best.

At most, Paramount ripped off the idea of show on a space station. After that the writers of DS9 and B5 did their own things. To claim there was active theft of each other's ideas is an insult to all of the talented writers on the two shows.

This whole deal comes from JMS blasting off like a jackass, as he is wont to do at times, and people actually listening. He's a talented man, but you should take his rants with an entire shaker of salt.
 
As most other posters he say: The answer is no.

JMS was not involved in DS9, so he shouldn't get credit for it.
 
Hm. Maybe George Orwell should get a co-story credit for every episode of B5 which mentions Minipax.

At most, Paramount ripped off the idea of show on a space station.

No, they didn't even do that. We've had station-based shows before either DS9 or B5 ever existed. Ever hear of Space: 1999? ;)
Space what? No, just kidding. Love the show! :bolian:
Me too. Niners and Fivers can forget their debate over which is the definitive space station series: The Alphans are King. :techman:
 
He should be given credit for coming up with a claim that generated some publicity for B5 that it would not have otherwise received.

"Frank about the originality of his work?" What originality was that?

The "DS9 borrowed from B5" claim was bullshit and was known to be bullshit by people who repeated it as truth at the time. It really was offensive to people working on DS9, who had the good sense to ignore it publicly or shrug it off for the most part.

A few things Robert H. Wolfe had to say about the "controversy"

Wolfe on a few supposed similarities

Wolfe's reply to Famously Insufferable Twat
 
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Oh, not this shit again.

For Valen's sake, let it go!

A decade and a half later, people are still bringing this shit up? wtf, dude?
 
By trying to sweep the whole connection under the carpet or constantly avoiding the subject they only add more weight to the accusation that Behr, Moore, Berman etc did spend a lot of time developing borrowed ideas from the series created by JMS. Straczynski was frank about the originality of his own work, but was casual when it came to other shows that 'borrowed', he had no intention of blocking another show by legal means.

The only problem with this is its complete inaccuracy. If there was an accusation that Berman or Pillar borrowed anything from B5, JMS didn't make it. In fact he went out of his way to state on numerous occassions that he didn't believe that they'd do any such thing.

It's been a decade and a half. Let it drop already.

Jan
 
Should JMS be given credit with Behr, Berman, Piller, Moore etc

Yet another one of these.

*sigh*

Cough up all the wild conspiracy theories you want, but the fact of the matter is that DS9 came first. They didn't rip off B5 because B5 didn't exist yet.
 
If anyone has a dog in this fight, it's me. And I'm not playing this petty, stupid game. It isn't remotely fair or beneficial to the fans of either show ( or both.. now there's a wild thought :rolleyes: ), or more to the point it isn't fair to the talented people who created each show. There's "evidence" on every side of this crap, so it's small wonder why folks believe what they do.

But the bottom line is that BOTH sides need to shut the heck up and get that life that seems so elusive to you.

end of story.
 
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