Should Beverly Really Be A Starship Captain?

[Nakita Akita]

Assuming the Geneva convention applies. I'm not talking about an unethical order here. If your doctor endangers their own people by going out into the field and lending aid to an enemy, and in doing so is jeopardizing countless more lives, then telling them to NOT do so & expecting them to follow that order IS ethical. Life is not black & white, good vs bad. Ordering an ugly thing to prevent worse things from happening is always a possibility

I was in the medical field in the US Army.
I don't know. I think a CO could order a doctor of lesser rank to not go and aid injured enemy soldier if it was going to jeopardize their own troops.
However military doctors is almost an oxymoron. A doctor might just tell the CO to "go to hell" and do what they want anyway.
In fact thinking of the doctors I knew, pretty well as a matter of fact, I think they did whatever they wanted to do.
They were cognizant of the hierarchy of command and followed the rules in that regard even though there were times they didn't agree.
There would be very little recourse against them at any rate. They could resign their commission and go out and make more money in the civilian sector in about the two hours it might take them to go home change clothes and get a new job. (They tried to court martial an 0-6 where I was stationed. He was head of the ER like a mile from his house about a week later.)
I only knew one that would have taken command of a unit or company though.
He had been in Viet Nam as a new lieutenant there. Then went to medical school. He was about 6 ft 4 inches tall and looked like John Wayne (when John Wayne was like in his 40's) he was the only bad assed doctor I ever met.
Don't get me wrong, most of the doctors were good doctors and behaved in a professional fashion but medicine ruled their lives not some dickweed trying to score brownie points or whatever.
I can see sme doctors being in command and others not at all. Pretty much like any occupation. Plus people can change too.

A bigger question would be is there s fan fiction out there with Captain Reg Barclay?
Or Commader The Womanizer Barclay?
Can someone change that much?

 

[STEPhon IT]

When Dr. Crusher had command of the Enterprise she made some good decisions. I think she should be a Star-Captain. Counselor Troi, and Worf as Captains, I would have deep concerns.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

So your argument seems to boil down to "shes a buttinski who sometimes disregards orders and the chain of command when she thinks she's right."

So... just like all of our other Captains.

**ERROR 47: ABANDON FRANCHISE**

 

[Mojochi]

So your argument seems to boil down to "shes a buttinski who sometimes disregards orders and the chain of command when she thinks she's right."
So... just like all of our other Captains.
**ERROR 47: ABANDON FRANCHISE**

More like, she's a tunnel vision afflicted bleeding heart, who disregards orders, to put one person's life over other people's lives, and somehow thinks that's right ... cuz doctor oath, even though she's hardly ever thinking beyond the present moment

When other captains we've seen disregard orders, it's because, more often than not, they're taking action to protect as many people as possible. On more than one occasion, she's only concerned with her patient, even one that's an enemy combatant, & damn the consequences to everybody else... e v e r y b o d y

I was in the medical field in the US Army.
I don't know. I think a CO could order a doctor of lesser rank to not go and aid injured enemy soldier if it was going to jeopardize their own troops.
However military doctors is almost an oxymoron. A doctor might just tell the CO to "go to hell" and do what they want anyway.
In fact thinking of the doctors I knew, pretty well as a matter of fact, I think they did whatever they wanted to do.
They were cognizant of the hierarchy of command and followed the rules in that regard even though there were times they didn't agree.
There would be very little recourse against them at any rate. They could resign their commission and go out and make more money in the civilian sector in about the two hours it might take them to go home change clothes and get a new job. (They tried to court martial an 0-6 where I was stationed. He was head of the ER like a mile from his house about a week later.)
I only knew one that would have taken command of a unit or company though.
He had been in Viet Nam as a new lieutenant there. Then went to medical school. He was about 6 ft 4 inches tall and looked like John Wayne (when John Wayne was like in his 40's) he was the only bad assed doctor I ever met.
Don't get me wrong, most of the doctors were good doctors and behaved in a professional fashion but medicine ruled their lives not some dickweed trying to score brownie points or whatever.
I can see sme doctors being in command and others not at all. Pretty much like any occupation. Plus people can change too.
A bigger question would be is there s fan fiction out there with Captain Reg Barclay?
Or Commader The Womanizer Barclay?
Can someone change that much?

Right. They could tell a CO to go to hell, or resign their commission, but if they took an action that could endanger their own company, they could also be brought up on charges I'd think

They spend a good portion of I Borg expecting the Borg to track Hugh down, & then there'd maybe be nothing left to do for anyone on that ship but die. When refusing to leave Rutia IV, Data & Worf had to stay back to protect & assist her. Picard literally tells her she's endangering her away team. If instead of kidnapping her, when the terrorist beams in, he'd tossed out another explosive & it killed Worf or Data, what then?

That they kowtow to her is pretty annoying too, but that she literally endangers more lives than she's aiding, is downright irresponsible, & reprehensible. She's the last person I'd ever want to serve with in a hot zone, & running an entire ship that encounters all manner of risky situations, a hot zone is potentially right around the corner. She may be the bee's knees in the safety of a sick bay or Starfleet Medical, but in the field? Find me a medic who's got their priorities right.

 

[Paradise City]

it's 25 years after most of her antics on the show and she gets to get to captain a small hospital ship. It's not exactly a plumb, cutting edge appointment and it's not unreasonable she would get it after X amount of years of service.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

More like, she's a tunnel vision afflicted bleeding heart, who disregards orders, to put one person's life over other people's lives, and somehow thinks that's right .

See also: James T Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

 

[Mojochi]

See also: James T Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

The one time... for what amounts to being his brother... not exactly a pattern of behavior like hers, & the only people endangered, did so under the same intent really. In fact, initially he'd intended them to bugger off before things got dicey, only to have them refuse to leave their posts

it's 25 years after most of her antics on the show and she gets to get to captain a small hospital ship. It's not exactly a plumb, cutting edge appointment and it's not unreasonable she would get it after X amount of years of service.

I can sort of concede that, but it still would've had to coincide with an earthshattering amount of mentality shifting for it to stick.... like a whole series worth of episodes where she grew TF up, & realized people count on her for their survival, outside of the one patient lying in front of her at a time, which wouldn't even really be her job anymore. I sure as hell couldn't see her also being the CMO on the ship she captains. I'd actually watch a show like that, with her having to learn hard just what it means to lead people in jeopardy, & maybe face off with a CMO who is just as much a pain in the ass as she was, about not seeing the bigger picture

Don't get me wrong. I kind of like Gates McFadden, & I don't think she does that bad of a job playing the character they wrote for her (Forgiving a few missteps). I have a few misgivings about many of the TNG characters. I just thought this was a real leap.

 

[Paradise City]

She just shifts roles and reinvents herself over the course of two decades plus. That's plausible enough especially in an optimistic society that you can be whatever you wanna be if you put your mind to it. We only really see her embryonic command skills late on the series anyway when she's known to do the night shift on some occasions. She's been married to Picard, so she may have had guidance from the main man and learnt the command trade from him. Maybe when they where telepathically linked in Attached she got a sense of it. Of course there's those Descent episodes. So she gets given a small hospital ship in the end. Tbh, I'd expect the ex-head of Starfleet Medical to be a captain with all the bells n' whistles of a frontier science vessel alá Captain Ransom in the Equinox or be an Admiral or something. Instead she's mucking about on a small hospital ship. It might make an entertaining series but on a rigorous reading of the consistency on what we are seeing, her standing with Starfleet has fallen.

I think the thing with the Crusher character is that she's sometimes miswritten as a surgeon in a medical drama. Doctors in medical dramas only see patients before them and are seen to frogmarch cops out if in their judgement it damages the health of a criminal whom the doctor only sees as a patient. Crusher is a bit like that from time to time and I dunno if that's sustainable on a Starfleet vessel.

 

[Nakita Akita]

More like, she's a tunnel vision afflicted bleeding heart, who disregards orders, to put one person's life over other people's lives, and somehow thinks that's right ... cuz doctor oath, even though she's hardly ever thinking beyond the present moment

When other captains we've seen disregard orders, it's because, more often than not, they're taking action to protect as many people as possible. On more than one occasion, she's only concerned with her patient, even one that's an enemy combatant, & damn the consequences to everybody else... e v e r y b o d y

Right. They could tell a CO to go to hell, or resign their commission, but if they took an action that could endanger their own company, they could also be brought up on charges I'd think

They spend a good portion of I Borg expecting the Borg to track Hugh down, & then there'd maybe be nothing left to do for anyone on that ship but die. When refusing to leave Rutia IV, Data & Worf had to stay back to protect & assist her. Picard literally tells her she's endangering her away team. If instead of kidnapping her, when the terrorist beams in, he'd tossed out another explosive & it killed Worf or Data, what then?

That they kowtow to her is pretty annoying too, but that she literally endangers more lives than she's aiding, is downright irresponsible, & reprehensible. She's the last person I'd ever want to serve with in a hot zone, & running an entire ship that encounters all manner of risky situations, a hot zone is potentially right around the corner. She may be the bee's knees in the safety of a sick bay or Starfleet Medical, but in the field? Find me a medic who's got their priorities right.

Well, I never liked her. She is way too milquetoast for me.
I think if she wanted to stay there and help someone, fine, give her a box of medical supplies and send her on her merry way.

I think any self respecting Doctor that wanted to ruin into a dangerous situation would Not expect that anyone else risk life or limb to go with them.
Obviously Picard was overindulgent of her. He should have beamed The others back.
I can't think of many situations where a doctor could endanger an entire company.
In the here and now, for the most part doctors are kept in the rear as they are way too valuable.
Yep. Send in the 91A to fix up the injured person for transport

 

[Noname Given]

It's Star Trek - captaincies are handed out like participation trophies.

^^^
That was only in TNG; (IE You NEVER saw Kirk call McCoy to the Bridge to take over Command. Hell even in TOS - "The Menagerie", while McCoy was the senior officer to whom he surrendered himself for arrest - temporary command of the ship was handed over to Lt. Hansen who was the ranking officer on the Bridge at that time with command experience.) NEITHER Beverly Crusher and ESPECIALLY Deanna Troi should EVER have been in line/the ship chain of command to Command/Captain the 1701-D, or any Federation Starship.)

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

True enough, but she should never have been in command in "Descent." You're in the middle of Borg space, your second officer is missing and has been compromised, and you leave your CMO in command so that your captain and your first officer can beam down to the planet and -- wave tricorders? Luckily, the Awesome New Thing Beverly learned about in "Suspicions" turned out to be exactly the Awesome New Thing needed to save the day. Blind coincidence FTW.

Especially given that the Chief Medical Officer (along with the Security Chief) is most likely not least to be training in SAR operations, so would be better utilised on the surface.

Note that Starfleet Medical is not qualified in any way with other nouns or with adjectives. Thus it seems likely that Dr. Crusher became head of all of Starfleet Medical, that is the medical branch of Starfleet.

Actually, given the existence of the Starfleet Surgeon General (a title traditionally given to the lead medical officer in a service or goverment), IMO it is more likely that "Starfleet Medical" refers to the main Starfleet hospital (in full the "Starfleet Medical San Francisco", similar to how the "National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda" is/was sometimes refered to as "Navy Med".

Starfleet Medical. So it is possible to be an admiral in Starfleet Medical.

It certainly seems to me that Starfleet Medical would be an important branch of Starfleet, a branch important enough that the head of it would always be a staff admiral.

IMO, the Surgeon General would be an Admiral, but the Hospital Administrator/Base Commander of the SMCSF would be a senior officer (either a substantive captain or with (temporary) positional title of Commodore).

 

[Horta]

Crusher has the qualities to be an outstanding captain. She is intelligent, she is courageous. She doesn't blindly follow orders, instead, she prioritizes ethics and sets aside blind obedience in favor of "seeing the forest through the trees." Jean-Luc selected Riker becasue he disobeyed his captains orders in order to protect his captain at the time... so we see that in the Star Trek universe, they have advanced to value independent thinking over blind order following. Remember, this is not a 20th century military organization, a model which predicts chaos if the individuals are permitted to act freely, and thus, obedience is the highest value. In the future, in Gene's universe, humans have evolved so that organizations can be run in a completely different manner, and unquestioned obedience is not the most valued attribute of an officer.
In addition to Crusher's intelligence, courage, ethics, and initiative she puts others above herself, which may be one of the most important attributes of a leader. Example: Remember in "Attached" when Crusher pushed Picard through the barrier as armed Prytt guards approached on Kesprytt II, assuring his safety. Her fist instinct was to save him over herself.

 

[Mojochi]

Crusher has the qualities to be an outstanding captain. She is intelligent, she is courageous. She doesn't blindly follow orders, instead, she prioritizes ethics and sets aside blind obedience in favor of "seeing the forest through the trees." Jean-Luc selected Riker becasue he disobeyed his captains orders in order to protect his captain at the time... so we see that in the Star Trek universe, they have advanced to value independent thinking over blind order following. Remember, this is not a 20th century military organization, a model which predicts chaos if the individuals are permitted to act freely, and thus, obedience is the highest value. In the future, in Gene's universe, humans have evolved so that organizations can be run in a completely different manner, and unquestioned obedience is not the most valued attribute of an officer.
In addition to Crusher's intelligence, courage, ethics, and initiative she puts others above herself, which may be one of the most important attributes of a leader. Example: Remember in "Attached" when Crusher pushed Picard through the barrier as armed Prytt guards approached on Kesprytt II, assuring his safety. Her fist instinct was to save him over herself.

& in The High Ground, she orders Worf to assist her at the jeopardy of the entire away team, in order to treat a patient that the locals told her they were capable of treating themselves. In I Borg she jeopardizes the away team again, & forces Picard's hand by meddling with a patient that is essentially a homing beacon, that could signal the entire ship's demise. There's individual thinking, & not blindly following orders, & then there's narrow minded tunnel vision. One cannot govern on compassion alone, & a ship's captain governs

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ And in Descent when she orders the Enterprise to remain in orbit until the last possible moment to recover as many of the crew as she can instead of leaving them at the mercy of the Borg, then orders the ship to remain in the region to both recover the crew and act as the first line of defence against the same Borg.

 

[trekfan39]

She showed her command prowess in Descent.

25 years passes between the end of TNG and the future era in All Good Things, a lot may have changed. And from what we know of Starfleet they see insubordination as a command quality. It worked for Picard and Kirk, at least.

We see from many episodes. If you quietly do your job, Starfleet likes you but thinks you're kinda lame. If you violate orders and kinda do your own thing, Starfleet promotes you.

Somebody should tell that to Harry Kim.

Yes but again she disobeyed orders and put almost the hole crew at risk just to take a chance that she could save the few people still on the planet. Not someone I would want to serve under and I have to agree with the OP on this.

 

[Mojochi]

^ And in Descent when she orders the Enterprise to remain in orbit until the last possible moment to recover as many of the crew as she can instead of leaving them at the mercy of the Borg, then orders the ship to remain in the region to both recover the crew and act as the first line of defence against the same Borg.

and got lucky lol, but I won't try to take her glory away that one time. She earns a win in the saves the day column there. All I'm saying is that there's more instances of her failing to be objective. She literally spends most of the show thinking she has a right to wear doctor goggles, & that's fine, but not if your also an officer, & though we never really got into it... Sometimes not even when you're just a doctor

Heck, Troi even gets a win in Disaster, but I still wouldn't hand over a whole ship to her. Even a broken clock is right twice a day lol

 

[Marc]

I never said she didn't have the qualifications to be a captain. I'm asking if she is the type of person who is capable of that kind of command over people in dangerous situations, with whole civilizations depending on her choices to use force when necessary, or more to the point, refrain from acting on compassion alone, the kind of compassion that on numerous occasions has dictated how she behaved as a subordinate officer, practicing medicine

Except Crusher wouldn't' have been in those sorts of situations.

She was in command of the Pasteur which was a medical ship - the sort of vessel that goes in after most of the danger has passed.

And yes as CMO she would have had experience both in command of people, crisis management and keeping a cool head when the shit hits the fan and that when the times come you can't save everyone (it's called triage).

As for the insubordination, she would simply state that her oath as a physician (Hypocratic oath) comes first and foremost.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Heck, Troi even gets a win in Disaster, but I still wouldn't hand over a whole ship to her. Even a broken clock is right twice a day lol

But she undergoes the Bridge Officers Certification to prove that she has what it takes to be in a command position, earns the rank of Commander and is seen in charge (albeit briefly) at various points in the rest of the series and also a couple of moments in the films.

 

[Mojochi]

But she undergoes the Bridge Officers Certification to prove that she has what it takes to be in a command position, earns the rank of Commander and is seen in charge (albeit briefly) at various points in the rest of the series and also a couple of moments in the films.

Just because you're qualified to babysit the ship for a spell doesn't mean you deserve one of your own

Except Crusher wouldn't' have been in those sorts of situations.

She was in command of the Pasteur which was a medical ship - the sort of vessel that goes in after most of the danger has passed.

Why would you think that? It's the same Star Trek universe full of lifeforms. How many times has the Enterprise been on aid missions, just like a hospital ship might, & had it go south with some faction intruding, or event taking place? The Borg still exist, The Romulans, etc... You think they care if it's a hospital ship? Kruge didn't give a single crap that the Grissom was a peaceful science vessel. Over 2 dozen hospital ships were sunk in WW2

"Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence. " Dr. Leonard McCoy - Star Trek (2009) Him, I might let command a hospital ship, if he were so inclined

And yes as CMO she would have had experience both in command of people, crisis management and keeping a cool head when the shit hits the fan and that when the times come you can't save everyone (it's called triage).

As for the insubordination, she would simply state that her oath as a physician (Hypocratic oath) comes first and foremost.

But it shouldn't be. That's the point. Be a doctor somewhere else then. The primary oath is to Starfleet, so long as its commands are ethical. She's demonstrated a disregard for that, to the detriment & endangerment of her own crew, & while it may be forgivable in their universe, to allow people with those priorities to serve, it's probably not in anyone's best interest to give them an entire ship to master.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Just because you're qualified to babysit the ship for a spell doesn't mean you deserve one of your own

I didn't say she deserved a ship of her own, not unless she spent several years gaining more command experience, passing the necessary proficiency tests and deemed suitable to have the rank of captain bestowed upon her--just like anyone else who wanted their own command would have to go through. But there is nothing in Troi's character that said she wanted a ship of her own, she went for the rank of Commander to push herself, to prove that she could and to build on her skills that she already has. She proved during her test that she can make the tough choices, put the ship first and issue the order that could see someone give their life for the good of the ship. I'm sure if she wanted it someday she may have her of surveyor, scout, light cruiser or diplomatic courier (not every starship out there is a capitol ship or high-profile deep space explorer), but that wouldn't be for some time.