Ships - Starfleet Diversity

[USS Triumphant]

I wish that Starfleet as shown on screen represented a greater diversity of ship design, with ships of obvious Vulcan, Andorian, etc, build. I understand (and approve) that they would still need a common livery and registration system to represent a unified "face" to other polities, but the extent to which design is shared seems.... wrong. "Oh, we *greatly* value IDIC... now make sure your ships have saucers and use these warp nacelles made in Iowa."

Design diversity might have had value in different circumstances we've seen the Federation face. Even just a throwaway/background line about how the U.S.S. (random name) had a Vulcan designed ring drive which was unaffected by the Whale Probe and was standing by for evacuation would have been nice in this regard (as well as a good opportunity for the Federation President or Sarek to deliver an "I'm not abandoning Earth" sort of line).

 

[C.E. Evans]

I feel the exact opposite. I think that Starfleet vessels should have a certain "look" unique to themselves. But I base that on an idea that during the Federation's early days, ships from various member worlds were pressed into Starfleet service to bolster the number of already incorporated Earth vessels and simply given a common paint job and signage...but as things progressed, the designs became more unified until a "Starfleet aesthetic" was eventually established. That aesthetic may have its roots with Earth, but so does Starfleet and the Federation, IMO.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I feel the exact opposite. I think that Starfleet vessels should have a certain "look" unique to themselves. But I base that on an idea that during the Federation's early days, ships from various member worlds were pressed into Starfleet service to bolster the number of already incorporated Earth vessels and simply given a common paint job and signage...but as things progressed, the designs became more unified until a "Starfleet aesthetic" was eventually established. That aesthetic may have its roots with Earth, but so does Starfleet and the Federation, IMO.

I think my problem with it has less to do with the aesthetic, and more to do with the idea that the Vulcans and anyone else who agrees with IDIC would be okay with abandoning technology branches just because another tech operates better on the high end. Sure, a bleeding edge ship like Voyager may have the fastest nacelles and bioneural gel packs. But what happens to your fleet if bioneural gel packs are adopted everywhere - even on ships whose mission profile doesn't need them - just because they're "the best" and "the new standard", and then something that specifically attacks the gel packs hits your fleet? And Voyager's engines may be superior at Warp 9.99997, but what about Warp 7, where a lot of cargo escort ships would need to operate? Ring ships might actually operate better at that speed - or just as well, in which case, why not make some with nacelles and some with ring drives just to have the variety and keep all of them from being exactly susceptible to all of the exact same flaws/attacks?

Speaking of Voyager, I'd have liked it if Starfleet had tried the variable-geometry warp pylons sometime earlier, found them to have no real use SO FAR, but then just kept building *some* of their ships with them anyway, just in case they turned out to have use in an unforeseen circumstance, because why not.

In our world, the answer would of course be that manufacturing would give up efficiencies of scale to do this, but I just can't see that being much of a consideration in the Federation - especially not as they've been shown during peacetime.

Why would 23rd and 24th century ships not still have grapplers (in addition to tractor beams)? It isn't like they take up a lot of space, or would break the bank.

 

[The Wormhole]

One of the concept designs for Voyager did include a ring around the ship. Had they stuck with that, we could now have said there were Vulcan influences, assuming of course Enterprise still went ahead and established ringed ships as a common Vulcan design trait.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I liked the red Armstrong-type ship in "Into Darkness", presumably Vulcan-built and captained by the Vulcan woman at the Starfeet HQ meeting.

Or maybe it is as just to look cool, I dunno.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I feel the exact opposite. I think that Starfleet vessels should have a certain "look" unique to themselves. But I base that on an idea that during the Federation's early days, ships from various member worlds were pressed into Starfleet service to bolster the number of already incorporated Earth vessels and simply given a common paint job and signage...but as things progressed, the designs became more unified until a "Starfleet aesthetic" was eventually established. That aesthetic may have its roots with Earth, but so does Starfleet and the Federation, IMO.

I think my problem with it has less to do with the aesthetic, and more to do with the idea that the Vulcans and anyone else who agrees with IDIC would be okay with abandoning technology branches just because another tech operates better on the high end. Sure, a bleeding edge ship like Voyager may have the fastest nacelles and bioneural gel packs. But what happens to your fleet is bioneural gel packs are adopted everywhere - even on ships whose mission profile doesn't need them - just because they're "the best" and "the new standard", and then something that specifically attacks the gel packs hits your fleet? And Voyager's engines may be superior at Warp 9.99997, but what about Warp 7, where a lot of cargo escort ships would need to operate? Ring ships might actually operate better at that speed - or just as well, in which case, why not make some with nacelles and some with ring drives just to have the variety and keep all of them from being exactly susceptible to all of the exact same flaws/attacks?

I think that's why there are so many starship classes in Starfleet. They are likely a melting pot of different technologies within the Federation, even if they don't look like it from their exteriors. But starships are ultimately tools for doing jobs for the Federation and one design may be better at this or that job than another (starships may be adaptable for a variety of missions, but not all of them--like the Constitution- and Galaxy-classes--are a jack of all trades, IMO).

I think as new technologies come along, they are incorporated into new designs and when they ultimately run their course, Starfleet moves on to the next one and some designs are retired earlier than others.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I think as new technologies come along, they are incorporated into new designs and when they ultimately run their course, Starfleet moves on to the next one and some designs are retired earlier than others.

Well, yes, that does appear to be the case on the shows and movies, more or less, but the implication of that is that they have found a particular technology branch to be "superior" and are phasing its predecessor out in favor of it - and it just seems to me that there have been plenty of times, even at our current point in history, when this has turned out to not be the correct way to deal with things.

We gave up leeches, and then it turned out later that there actually *was* a reason to use them - just maybe not what we previously believed. During the 2014 Ebola outbreak in West Africa, modern medical means such as anti-virals were found to be inferior for treatment to antiserums that had their basis in times when medicine was almost indistinguishable from magic as far as our understanding of it went. A rechargeable battery powered light or screwdriver are nice, but if the power goes out for an extended time, it sure is nice to have a plain old screwdriver and some candles on hand....

Not sure where I even got this from, to be honest, but someone or something said that Klingon warp coils did not chew up subspace like the Starfleet ones were demonstrated to do in the TNG episode "Force of Nature" - and after making some adjustments to Starfleet coils based on the Klingon ones, that is why we didn't hear much about it again. Now, if true, imagine how long it might have taken to correct that issue if as soon as the Klingons and the Federation had peace, they had all standardized on a Starfleet design. Or conversely, the fact that that could be a problem at all might not have been discovered as soon if they had standardized on a Klingon one.

Left up to me, there would be Starfleet ships with Vulcan warp drives, Cochran-type, Klingon, and even Romulan singularity drives, and whatever else they have found. Phaser-cannons, disrupters, polaron arrays, etc. Multiphasic shields wouldn't just be multiphasic, but one layer would be provided by emitters based on Starfleet design, one on Klingon designs, etc. Quantum and traditional binary computers on board, and whatever else they've come up with. Grapplers, as well as tractor beam emitters.

Obviously, they couldn't have redundant *everything* or carry *every* tech, but as much of that sort of thing as possible only seems prudent to me when facing the unknown - and especially when money is no real consideration.

 

[Richard Baker]

I can see the logic of keeping a certain design standard to save on fabrication costs and interchangeability of replacement parts. Build so many saucers and warp nacelles then with minor changes you can replace a primary hull or get a star drive section back into operation. In times of war having interchangeable parts is essential- that shifted gun fabrication from uniquely crafted firearms to units which could be assembled from randomly selected pieces from a stack of parts.

I figure the 'Starfleet' appearance of the ships was due to the combined efforts of the different member races. Each contributed certain elements- we saw part of this effort in the ST-E 'Twilight' IIRC with the Andorians providing the shielding technology.

Still I would like to see more variation in hull configurations and some specialty vessels instead of the same parade of a handful of ships kept in stock at the production pouse...

 

[USS Triumphant]

I can see the logic of keeping a certain design standard to save on fabrication costs and interchangeability of replacement parts. Build so many saucers and warp nacelles then with minor changes you can replace a primary hull or get a star drive section back into operation. In times of war having interchangeable parts is essential- that shifted gun fabrication from uniquely crafted firearms to units which could be assembled from randomly selected pieces from a stack of parts.

I understand this logic, but I feel like it is based in the thinking of a time (our present) when things like "fabrication costs" are a concern. These are people who have harnessed energies (if they are using shown technologies properly) equal to the output of whole stars. With cargo replicators, they should be able to make another saucer from the original designs PDQ - even if they had a different design for every ship in the fleet. Likewise, it probably wouldn't be a big deal to have extra parts pre-made and on hand at starbases and such. During peacetime, anyway. When at war or gearing up for it, then it *might* make sense to shift back to your thinking to run the war effort on purest efficiency, because you're expecting a bunch of ships to get damaged or destroyed. But Dominion War aside, that hasn't been most of what we've seen. They've been putting *families* on ships, fer cryin' out loud.

 

[Disco]

Maybe they unified the design so that Starfleet as a representative of all the races had a single look that didn't reflect one world? With a lean on the design seen in Enterprise to reflect the importance of that ship in unifying the original members of the Federation?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Maybe they unified the design so that Starfleet as a representative of all the races had a single look that didn't reflect one world? With a lean on the design seen in Enterprise to reflect the importance of that ship in unifying the original members of the Federation?

Well, yes. That seems to be what we've seen. But it is an emotional reason, not a logistical or logical one, and it still doesn't explain why, for instance, the Enterprise-D would not have grapplers.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I feel the exact opposite. I think that Starfleet vessels should have a certain "look" unique to themselves. But I base that on an idea that during the Federation's early days, ships from various member worlds were pressed into Starfleet service to bolster the number of already incorporated Earth vessels and simply given a common paint job and signage...but as things progressed, the designs became more unified until a "Starfleet aesthetic" was eventually established. That aesthetic may have its roots with Earth, but so does Starfleet and the Federation, IMO.

I agree with this.

I can imagine, in the early years of the Federation, Starfleet being a mish-mash of various vessels but, over time, it only makes sense for Starfleet to simplify the building process and have Federation-wide ships.

Aesthetic qualities are not totally relevant, particularly once Vulcans/Andorians etc have grown up only knowing Starfleet designs. I don't think IDIC neccessarily equates to "we want to be able to keep our Vulcan designs because....they are Vulcan!" otherwise the entire Federation would get nothing done. How would you have designed the phaser? You get all the schematics, you have a design twice as powerful as a phase pistol...but the Vulcan/Human/Andorian scientists cant agree on how it should look? That is a bit riduculous.

I like to think that with the on-screen variety shown [look at the Sovereign, Oberth, Galaxy, Intrepid, Steamrunner, Defiant] that the various designs are born from various design schools and are intended for various purposes.

Do you really feel Starfleet should have ships from ALL member races, that all look different, all use different components [that need replaced and serviced] and thus would require different training for those serving aboard etc.

No, I think the universal design ethic the Federation has adopted for its Starfleet is very sensible.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Aesthetic qualities are not totally relevant, particularly once Vulcans/Andorians etc have grown up only knowing Starfleet designs. I don't think IDIC neccessarily equates to "we want to be able to keep our Vulcan designs because....they are Vulcan!" otherwise the entire Federation would get nothing done. How would you have designed the phaser? You get all the schematics, you have a design twice as powerful as a phase pistol...but the Vulcan/Human/Andorian scientists cant agree on how it should look? That is a bit riduculous.

I mostly agree. I mean, a ring drive IS going to influence a ship's look, but that isn't my primary concern at all. It would be nice if there were more cultural aesthetics represented, but the techs are my greater concern. I don't necessarily care if everyone on an away team in a potentially hostile area is carrying a Type-3 phaser. I care that none of them are carrying (or also carrying) a disruptor or a good old-fashioned mass flinger! Because when their captors put them in a shielded cage immune to phaser fire, they'll regret that.

 

[T'Girl]

We gave up leeches

But in some place around the world they still use blowfly maggots, because they eat dead flesh and cancer, but won't touch healthy living flesh.

Not in this country though.

***

The Defiant had a non-standard (to normal Starfleet) design, different engines and deflector, it was designed at UP, but with whose technology in mind? The Grissom also possessed unusual engines and deflector design.

It possible that most Federation members are incapable of producing ships above a certain size, and therefor purchase their larger ships from a limited number of shipyards.

This is the situation on Earth today, if you want a destroyer you have to contract the job out.

Having the ship have different hull colors would have been a good route to go, and likely wouldn't have been too expensive for the FX department.

"

 

[J.T.B.]

With the possible exception of ENT, the Starfleet we see in Trek has been around a while. If Starfleet and the Federation were fairly young, we might expect a wide diversity among various members' space vessels. But whatever innovations the various members had for their own vessels would have long ago been incorporated into Starfleet's overall designs and construction.

The alternative would seem to be members jealously guarding their spaceship technology for themselves, which sounds rather un-Federation like.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Aesthetic qualities are not totally relevant, particularly once Vulcans/Andorians etc have grown up only knowing Starfleet designs. I don't think IDIC neccessarily equates to "we want to be able to keep our Vulcan designs because....they are Vulcan!" otherwise the entire Federation would get nothing done. How would you have designed the phaser? You get all the schematics, you have a design twice as powerful as a phase pistol...but the Vulcan/Human/Andorian scientists cant agree on how it should look? That is a bit riduculous.

I mostly agree. I mean, a ring drive IS going to influence a ship's look, but that isn't my primary concern at all. It would be nice if there were more cultural aesthetics represented, but the techs are my greater concern. I don't necessarily care if everyone on an away team in a potentially hostile area is carrying a Type-3 phaser. I care that none of them are carrying (or also carrying) a disruptor or a good old-fashioned mass flinger! Because when their captors put them in a shielded cage immune to phaser fire, they'll regret that.

I see what you are saying but that doesn't seem feasible to me. They can't all carry phasers, one has a disruptor, another a phaser, another a tommy gun, another a bow and arrow...how many variations are required?

To put it another way, an entire team carrying phasers can do much more than an entire team carrying todays handguns. There are very few scenarios where a handgun can beat a phaser for sheer usefulness. Hence why the military today don't have archery divisions etc.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I see what you are saying but that doesn't seem feasible to me. They can't all carry phasers, one has a disruptor, another a phaser, another a tommy gun, another a bow and arrow...how many variations are required? <snip> Hence why the military today don't have archery divisions etc.

It might not be feasible to carry one of every weapon technology they've ever discovered, but it certainly seems to me that at the very least, they would want an energy-thrower and a mass-thrower. And with as small as we've seen phasers and disruptors, a handheld device that can do BOTH (as well as maybe a few others) doesn't seem unreasonable, either.

I realize I sound like I'm arguing an extreme, and maybe I am, but it seems like we see a troubling lack of technical diversity represented, as is, so that's on the other extreme.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think as new technologies come along, they are incorporated into new designs and when they ultimately run their course, Starfleet moves on to the next one and some designs are retired earlier than others.

Well, yes, that does appear to be the case on the shows and movies, more or less, but the implication of that is that they have found a particular technology branch to be "superior" and are phasing its predecessor out in favor of it...

Starfleet vessels are likely a melting pot of technologies from various Federation member worlds. If anything, there's an implication of shared technology (including any improvements that eventually come).

That doesn't mean the individual Federation member worlds stop making their own tech, though.

 

[T'Girl]

But whatever innovations the various members had for their own vessels would have long ago been incorporated into Starfleet's overall designs and construction..

But the Federation over the course of two centuries went from half a dozen members to over one fifty. Plus (maybe) some members who came and left. So there would be a gradual influx of new members and their particular design philosophies.The fact that the Federation is old wouldn't prevent some members from still having ships from their pre-Federation days.

Unless you think that they're going to retire their prefectly good existing starship fleets to switch to Starfleet's standard design ... if there is such.

The Excelsior class was around for a century, so really Starfleet should be composed of a fairly wild collection of designs.

 

[Ithekro]

Ease of maintenance by having all the systems similar in design makes training easier and keeps supply lines from having too much of some uncommon compoments sitting at starbases waiting for that one races ship style to show up on the other side of the Federation.

If Starfleet was a mix of all technologies and styles without being a blending of them into a more unified style, a starbase would have to carry components for all the different types of systems for each race's ships. And likely have an overstock of larger components that are either not replicated, or are only replicated in massive shipyard level industrical replicators (like warp cores, and warp coils, or larger systems).

While Starfleet still does have large differences in starships, they are more or less uniform in style so that a phaser array from one could be fitted to another ship with only minor modifications. The smaller parts can be swapped from ship to ship and the larger parts can be modified to work (if they is space).

That cannot be said from trying to fit Vulcan parts into an Andorian starship.