Cary L Brown:
Zero point energy fields - "there is absolutely zero (pun intended) evidence that any such thing even exists"
Google "Casimir effect" or "Lamb shift"
And, from a theoretical pov, ZPE is predicted/needed by QED - the most accurate theory ever created by man.
Here's an article (complete with sources) about ZPE:
http://users.erols.com/iri/ZPEpaper.html
ZPE IS hard science.
No.
Dr. Valone may say it is. Then again, there are lot of other people who will explain, in excruciating detail, why the earth really is flat, too.
"Hard science" doesn't mean "someone with a plaque on wall says it's so."
"Hard science" means "proven with repeatable, reliable, and peer-reviewable experimental evidence."
There are those who claim that the so-called "Casimir effect" proves this. It does not such thing. All it proves is that the "Casimir effect" is observed. There is no... NO... conclusive evidence that there is any relationship between the two. It's SPECULATION, nothing more or less.
Regardless of how many books Dr. Valone wants you to buy.
Matt Viser can say something like "there can be no doubt that it's real," but Tom Cruise can then say that "There can be no doubt that Xeno flew to Earth on an intergalactic DC-9."
There is a great deal of doubt about this. And no proof whatsoever.
Read BOTH SIDES of the debate, not just the "fanboy" side.
About the self replicating mines ang ZPE in star trek:
"Conventional (for Star Trek) energy sources can't explain the mines' properties - they would break the law of conservation of energy.
No, they don't. The only way that this is the case is if there is no external energy souce.
"ZPE" could be that external energy source. So could "tapping into the output from the belt," or "tapping into the power from the wormhole."
None of those three solutions is more, or less, plausible than the other. Except that "controllable ZPE" is inconsistent with every other element of "Treknology" which we see.
"Controllable ZPE" would be such a massive "context-shifting" thing that everything we see and know about the Trek universe would be changed.
Wouldn't you expect to see ship's power systems converted to this... making them effectively infinitely powerful and infinitely-ranged... before you'd see Rom manage to invent something like this?
One slightly goofy Ferengi bartender invents something, in a matter of hours, which the rest of the galaxy's scientists and engineers hadn't come up with yet?
That, to me, seems highly implausible... going beyond my ability to suspecd my sense of disbelief.
However... if (after studying the wormhole for a number of years, in extensive detail) they'd learned how to "piggyback" the wormhole to allow it to provide power to nearby devices (something which IS far more plausible, I think... since at DS9, they're at the one place in the universe where they can really study this particular wormhole - which is UNIQUE, remember - and learn its secrets.
This also sidesteps a MASSIVE issue with the entire concept of "ZPE-powered self-replicating mines," which was brought up earlier in this thread.
Remember... if the mines rely on the wormhole as their source of power, they aren't at risk of having a minor malfunction which would result in them spreading throughout the entire universe, wiping out everything. If they were, in fact, "ZPE-powered"... wouldn't that be a bit of a concern?
Would YOU implement a "self-replicating" device... think of them as bacterium... with a limitless power source... think of it as an infinite food supply... and no 100% reliable means of killing of the infection if it mutates?
What if a single bit gets flipped during replication... just once... and the mines are no longer able to be controlled? And they just keep replicating and replicating, and replicating... infinitely.
What happens then?
No... from an in-universe standpoint, having these be "ZPE" devices would be a horrible idea, making the "Doomsday machine" pale by comparison.
And the mines need a LOT of energy - cloacking, recycling materials from destroyed mines, self-replicating (and the new mines must be able to explode) - I doubt the energy from the Denorius Belt would be suficcient.
Replicators in the Trek universe do not create matter from energy. They convert matter from one form into another. This is "canon," by every on-screen and every "semi-official published" reference.
A "self-replicating minefield" without an EXTERNAL MATTER SOURCE would be useless. You might refer to it as a "self-recycling minefield" but even then, I'm sure that some mass would be lost with every explosion, so you'd start with 100 mines, and within a few "engagements" be permanently down to, say, 90 mines, due to lost mass.
For this concept to work, you need the following:
1) A source of energy which is consistent with the universe as presented.
2) A source of matter to use as raw material to manufacture new devices (and NOT merely "recycling").
3) A 100% reliable means of controlling the devices, and preventing them from being "the bacterial infection which wipes out the galaxy."
For #1, ZPE fails, only because it's not consistent with the universe as presented. No Federation Starships are using ZPE power systems, are they?
The only (POSSIBLE) place where ZPE is in use in the Federation is as a warhead (and even that's not something which has been formally established). This infers that ZPE, while perhaps DISCOVERED by this point, is not yet something which is able to be controlled.
For #2, ZPE (and your "recycling" idea) fail, because you require a ready source of mass. And we know the maximum range for TNG-era transporters... and have to assume that the ability to harvest matter by these mines is even more restrictive (due to simple matters of device scale!). The only plausible source would be "ejecta from the wormhole." And we see plenty of visual evidence to support the idea that there may be some form of matter present in there, as well as a great deal of energy in there.
For #3... having the devices tied to the wormhole, for power and for mass, handles that quite nicely. Much as a bacterial colony will grown in the sugar on the bottom of a petri dish yet not on the walls.
The only explanation would be that they're using zero point energy.
NO.
Not "the only explanation." There are many other possible explanations. One of which has been provided, and reiterated above. You are simply so infatuated with this idea that you're rejecting the other as "impossible" out of hand.
You could make the argument that "I think ZPE is the best explanation." But your statement that it is "the only explanation," is patently false. Obviously.
ZPE also has problems... albeit problems you have systematically avoided considering, it seems, as to do so would compromise your own argument. And ZPE is little more than "speculative fiction" at this point, with NO PROOF BEHIND IT WHATSOEVER. It's just a very cool "what if" idea.
As to how the Federation aqcuired ZPE:
Quantum torpedos were quite widespread in later star trek. In a DS9 episode, Quark mentioned that they were availabe on the market if the price was right. And these torpedos were said to use zero point energy in DS9 TM.
About ZPE generators - several times during star trek, we had no ideea what technology an alien power source used - just that it was better than M/AM. The borg would be the first example that comes to mind.
And, in-universe, this is entirely possible.
Maybe you failed to read the point I raised about these being, in-universe, something like fusion is today... something we can tap into, but not yet control?
That's why we have hydrogen bombs, but no fusion powerplants, today. We know how to tap it, but not control it.
That also fits with TNG-era Treknology... "quantum torpedos" can be ZPE "warheads" because a "warhead" doesn't involve the ability to CONTROL the output energy.
As for "quantum torpedos" using ZPE, I am fine with that, and the DS9 TM says it, sure... but it also says many things which are inconsistent even with itself and with stuff seen on-screen. It's a great resource, but not 100% conclusive. I
accept that they're ZPE devices, but we don't "know" that they are.
(Actually... all they REALLY are is "fictional buzzwords intended to sound more advanced than 'photon torpedoes,'" after all!)
My personal speculation would be that the borg showed tha Alpha quadrant that ZPE actually works. Afterwards, the feds (and not only) tried to recreate the technoloy. Quantum torpedos were the first result. Generators that could extraxt energy from the void - ineffectively, but still well enough to power the mines - followed.
Okay, then, riddle me this: If they have ZPE devices which are inefficient and unreliable... which is how I'm interpreting your use of "ineffective" here (since they'd need to be at least PARTLY effective, wouldn't they?)... and since it's been argued that "Trek sensors can detect all energy immediately"... why were the mines invisible to all sensors?
A passive device is far easier to hide than a messy, noisy, inefficient one. A solar-powered cell phone tower, for instance... compared to one powered by a diesel generator. Which is more reliable? Which requires more, or less, maintenance? Which is easier to hide?
(Oh, and by the way... Dominion, and Federation, sensors, at this time, are incapable of detecting the mines, right? So... does that mean that the cloaking fields could not be detected, themselves, by some new form of sensor and a sensor-processing algorithm which knows what to look for?)
One last point about the "emissions from the wormhole." While, in the beginning, they merely "stumble onto" the wormhole... pretty quickly, our heroes learn how to detect the location of the wormhole with sensors, even when it's "closed." They don't have to stumble around looking for it... they just fly right into it... even when it's "closed."
How, exactly, does that work if there's no way to see it? Space is, after all... very, very big. Something you can't see is very hard to find.
Seems to me that this, by itself, infers that the wormhole mouth, even when "closed," is still giving some form of "energy signature"... maybe emitting some small amount of mass ejecta... there's gotta be SOMETHING that they can see, once they know what to look for.
Doesn't there?
The cardassians had their own "little" science project. They built a "subspace generator" aka "ZPE generator" that powered their defenses around Chin'toka.
Maybe I'm missing something here... but where, in the show, was the term "ZPE generator" used to refer to that defensive system?
It looks, to me, like you're making that up. There is NO reason to conclude that a "subspace generator" is in any fashion related to a "ZPE power source," unless that is EXPLICITLY STATED ON-SCREEN.
Was it stated as such? Or is this you, "inferring" something you want to believe, with no supporting evidence?
This generator compensated for the ineffectiveness of the process with its size.
Can you support that, or is that your own personal fiction?
The results were spectacular. Those impenetrable shields around the weapon platforms and their overpowered weapons - we've only seen that in one main star trek species before: the borg (if you discount several ascended beings).
All we know is that these platforms were big and powerful and hard to kill. That was the point of those lines in the script. There is not one shred of on-screen evidence to support that "this big and powerful thing" and "that big and powerful thing" are in any way related, other than being "big and powerful."
It's more likely, honestly, that the power sources used in these platforms were based upon something given to them by the Founders. There is very minimal evidence of contact between Cardassians and Borg (that evidence consisting of one, and only one, Borgified Cardassian seen in the background in "First Contact").
ZPE is not widely used because the tech is - and will remain for some time - ineffective (it's newly discovered, not mature, like the borg variant).
Pure fantasy. There is no on-screen evidence to support this. (Yes, all trek is "fantasy" but we're talking about (1) real science, and (2) on-screen evidence. Neither support this conclusion.)
You'll need a gigantic generator to extract large quantities of energy from vacuum - too big to fit on starships or anything else. In other words, a small (more or less) ZPE generator can't power a starship, M/AM reactors produce much more energy."
Again.. prove that statement with respect to anything either seen on-screen or in real science as we know it today.
Further... relate that to the TINY mines (remember, we see a full-scale model on the station once!) and to the size of quantum torpedoes. Your comments are neither supported by "real science" (which says NOTHING, EITHER WAY) or by on-screen evidence (which says very much the opposite of the point you're trying to make).
About star trek scanners/computers - they are able to scan a planet in seconds! Something that powerful will have no problem scanning one (unlike SETI) solar system (far from infinity) - and they had thousands of years to do it.
"Able to scan a planet in seconds?"
Hmmm... you keep repeating that nonsense, even though you've have example after example provided to you demonstrating how on-screen evidence directly contradicts your claim. Evidence from every single series, including DS9.
You say "able to scan an entire planet in seconds." Fine... how come, then, they were not able to see the Jem Hadar, or Vorta, on the planet where they first encountered them, from orbit?
I'd have thought that, if that were REMOTELY accurate, they'd have hit the "scan the entire planet in seconds" button, and instantaneously known that "there are several villainous aliens on the planet below, with these exact piece of hardware which do these exact things."
Did I miss that part of that episode? Must've been cut for a commercial break, huh?
