Ships Should Be Indestructable

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
I find your explanation contrived - like one of those Voyager technobabble explanations.
It requires the wormhole to generate a new type of energy, star trek scanners to work in a certain way, the bajorans/cardassians to act in a certain way and to have had certain technologies, etc - and most of these premises are improbable.
Is your explanation possible in the trekverse? Yes - but only because not much is established about its science, tech and history and you fill in the blanks in a certain (improbable) way, in order for your explanation to make sense.

About my ZPE explanation - I explained above why it's preferable. I will say only this - zero point energy is a LOT less silly than transporters or warp drive.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
I find your explanation contrived - like one of those Voyager technobabble explanations.

Hardly. I'm not making up any new words or roundabout convenience, it's just an analysis from logic.

To be very blunt about it, sensors are only omniscient when required to be by plot logic. Since plot logic in this case required them NOT to be, the wormhole remained undiscovered.

It requires the wormhole to generate a new type of energy

Nope. Just the same charged plasma field as exists in the rest of the denorious belt.

star trek scanners to work in a certain way

And if you actually knew how they worked, that would mean something.

About my ZPE explanation - I explained above why it's preferable. I will say only this - zero point energy is a LOT less silly than transporters or warp drive.

So is perpetual motion and water-powered cars. The only technical problem with your theory is that a ZPE device would be useable in OTHER places, and self-replicating mines would be standard in the Federation by now.

 

[Birdog]

The best explanation for the mines' power source - zero point energy.

"Zero point energy" is just another term for "perpetual motion device." It's a valid theory, but a silly one.

It's a good theory except if the Feds have that technology then why do their ships still burn fuel? Why not power everything with a ZPF tap?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
About the wormhole generating energy - I think my previous explanations are not invalidated by your arguments. Obviously, we interpret differently the on-screen star trek material.
We'll have to agree to have different views on the matter.

newtype alpha, birdog
About ZPE - I already adressed the problem you mentioned - why is ZPE so little used - in a previous post:

"Conventional (for Star Trek) energy sources can't explain the mines' properties - they would break the law of conservation of energy.

And the mines need a LOT of energy - cloacking, recycling materials from destroyed mines, self-replicating (and the new mines must be able to explode) - I doubt the energy from the Denorius Belt would be suficcient.

The only explanation would be that they're using zero point energy. As to how the Federation aqcuired ZPE:

Quantum torpedos were quite widespread in later star trek. In a DS9 episode, Quark mentioned that they were availabe on the market if the price was right. And these torpedos were said to use zero point energy in DS9 TM.

About ZPE generators - several times during star trek, we had no ideea what technology an alien power source used - just that it was better than M/AM. The borg would be the first example that comes to mind.

My personal speculation would be that the borg showed tha Alpha quadrant that ZPE actually works. Afterwards, the feds (and not only) tried to recreate the technoloy. Quantum torpedos were the first result. Generators that could extraxt energy from the void - ineffectively, but still well enough to power the mines - followed.
The cardassians had their own "little" science project. They built a "subspace generator" aka "ZPE generator" that powered their defenses around Chin'toka. This generator compensated for the ineffectiveness of the process with its size. The results were spectacular. Those impenetrable shields around the weapon platforms and their overpowered weapons - we've only seen that in one main star trek species before: the borg (if you discount several ascended beings)."

ZPE is not widely used because the tech is - and will remain for some time - ineffective (it's newly discovered, not mature, like the borg variant). You'll need a gigantic generator to extract large quantities of energy from vacuum - too big to fit on starships or anything else. In other words, a small (more or less) ZPE generator can't power a starship, M/AM reactors produce much more energy.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The best explanation for the mines' power source - zero point energy.

"Zero point energy" is just another term for "perpetual motion device." It's a valid theory, but a silly one.

It's a good theory except if the Feds have that technology then why do their ships still burn fuel? Why not power everything with a ZPF tap?

Yeah, that too. It's a bit too convenient not to also be revolutionary. And that also leaves the question of how exactly Rom of all people would know how to construct a ZPE device.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
I already adressed these points in my above post.
And Rom had access to classified Federation tech - consider the circumstances.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
I already adressed these points in my above post.

You attempted to, but didn't really accomplish this. It still leaves the problem that any ZPE device powerful enough to replicate another mine from pure energy would be FAR more powerful than a starship's warp core. A charged plasma field, on the other hand, would basically consist of a diffuse cloud of hydrogen ions, which could be gathered by a magnetic field and reassembled into a new device using a replicator. The fact that it is CHARGED also means it's electrically conductive, and the mines could easily extract the needed electrical energy straight from the wormhole like a gigantic floating dynamo. That's not a great deal of energy, a few thousand watts at most, but combine all of those mines together in parallel and you can get a good amount of juice.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
The ZPE generates enough energy for the mines to replicate, yes - but it doesn't do it instantly. The mines might need to extract energy from the vacuum for a few hours in order to gather enough energy for replication (and don't replicate from pure energy - about the material they use for the new mines: see below). The cloak is there to ensure that the mines remain undetected/are not destroyed in that interval.

About your ideea - the mines are made of more than just hydrogen - that's why the only feasable solution is for the mines to recycle the material of the destroyed mines via a performant transporter.
And a few thousand watts are not enough for replication (not to mention recyclation) - not unless you want the mines to gather energy for a week until they're able to replicate.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
The ZPE generates enough energy for the mines to replicate, yes - but it doesn't do it instantly. The mines might need to extract energy from the vacuum for a few hours to gather enough energy for replication.

Contradicted by Dukat, "each time we destroy one, its neighbor replicates another." If it worked the way you describe, dismantling the minefield would simply be a matter of destroying them faster than they could replicate. A simple phaser sweep would suffice for that.

Also, your theory would not properly explain how the mines have enough power to remain cloaked while they are recharging.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
The ZPE generates enough energy for the mines to replicate, yes - but it doesn't do it instantly. The mines might need to extract energy from the vacuum for a few hours to gather enough energy for replication.

Contradicted by Dukat, "each time we destroy one, its neighbor replicates another." If it worked the way you describe, dismantling the minefield would simply be a matter of destroying them faster than they could replicate. A simple phaser sweep would suffice for that.

Yes - and if the mines weren't cloacked, the Dominion could destroy them faster than they could replicate. A few hours after a mine is replicated, it can replicate itself. After that interval, it will replicate as soon as another mine is destroyed.

Not to mention that your solution - extract minute quantities of energy from a hydrogen cloud - has the same problem, only amplified due to acute shortage of energy.

About the cloacking problem - the mines are replicated with enough onboard energy to stay cloacked - and then the ZPE starts fuctioning.

But, if we're talking about the cloack - explain how your mines can stay hidden when they absorb energy from a surrounding cloud - considering the basic form of energy we're talking about, it's not only improbable that the dominion sensors can't see the drain - it's impossible. And from where exactly do your mines get enough energy to stay cloacked?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
The ZPE generates enough energy for the mines to replicate, yes - but it doesn't do it instantly. The mines might need to extract energy from the vacuum for a few hours to gather enough energy for replication.

Contradicted by Dukat, "each time we destroy one, its neighbor replicates another." If it worked the way you describe, dismantling the minefield would simply be a matter of destroying them faster than they could replicate. A simple phaser sweep would suffice for that.

Yes - and if the mines weren't cloacked, the Dominion could destroy them faster than they could replicate. A few hours after a mine is replicated, it can replicate itself. After that interval, it will replicate as soon as another mine is destroyed.

It doesn't take hours to locate a cloaked mine. It takes a few seconds: sweep the area with phaser fire until you hit something, then blow up whatever you hit. Or drag an asteroid through the minefield so the mines will blow it up.

The whole point of the self-replicating minefield wasn't that it was hard to dismantle. It was that it NEVER RUNS OUT OF MINES, which means no matter how many ships you send through, the minefield never gets any smaller. The Dominion didn't care about their Jem'hadar cannonfodders, give the choice they'd just send a hundred battlebugs through to waste all those mines, but if the field never runs out, it doesn't matter how many ships you send through.

Not to mention that your solution - extract minute quantities of energy from a hydrogen cloud - has the same problem, only amplified due to acute shortage of energy.

Except using the belt's plasma field as a dynamo doesn't require a charge. The mines have a giant dynamo sitting right next to them they can draw on for energy, plus a supply of raw materials in the wormhole's accretion disk. This without the problem of why the minefield--let alone the ZPE energy device--is never used anywhere else. Even the reference from the DS9 manual only refers to them in relation to quantum torpedoes; zero point energy isn't canon.

But, if we're talking about the cloack - explain how your mines can stay hidden when they absorb energy from a surrounding cloud - considering the basic form of energy we're talking about, it's not only improbable that the dominion sensors can't see the drain - it's impossible.

Special pleading. You assume they could detect a simple electrical circuit through a cloaking shield in the middle of a plasma field, but you assume they CAN'T detect a device that produces massive amounts of energy essentially ex-nihilo from surrounding space OUTSIDE that cloaking field.

Okay... whatever.

And from where exactly do your mines get enough energy to stay cloacked?

From the plasma field, of course. It wouldn't be difficult, all they'd need is to produce a positive charge at one electrode and use it as a ground from the plasma field. Apparently it isn't difficult to cloak small objects (quark and Rom in "The Emperor's New Cloak"). But converting pure energy directly into matter requires a fantastic amount of energy; at the rates we're talking here, several times more than is produced by a starship's warp core. Even if a ZPE device takes "a few hours" to build up that much energy, it would still be far more effective than a starship's warp core.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
The mines can obtain from the hydrogen cloud only a fraction of the energy they can obtain from the vacuum (which can well be a cavity inside the mines - meaning, it's inside the cloack).

The problems you claim my solution has - your solution has them tenfold. And I'm saying dominion sensors can sense the energy drain in the cloud - which is not cloacked.

And I've already said that my mines don't replicate from pure energy:
"The only feasable solution is for the mines to recycle the material of the destroyed mines via a performant transporter." The ZPE energy is used for recycling these materials and for replicating.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
The mines can obtain from the hydrogen cloud only a fraction of the energy they can obtain from the vacuum

Based on what?

The problems you claim my solution has - your solution has them tenfold.

How? Starships already use charged plasma to power their systems. Apparently, a simple fusion reactor is sufficient to power a cloaking device as well. But ZPE cannot account for their ability to replicate matter without a MATTER SOURCE. You'd need alot more energy than even a starship is capable of producing.

And I'm saying dominion sensors can sense the energy drain in the cloud

How?

And I've already said that my mines don't replicate from pure energy:
"The only feasable solution is for the mines to recycle the material of the destroyed mines via a performant transporter."

Which, like your ZPE energy field, would somehow not be visible through the cloaking device.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
The mines can obtain from the hydrogen cloud only a fraction of the energy they can obtain from the vacuum

Based on what?

Based on the fact that you yourself said that the mines can extract from the hydrogen cloud only a measely few thousand watts - an optimistic figure. My ZPE generator can do much better and still be a weak power source - by star trek standards.

The problems you claim my solution has - your solution has them tenfold.

How?

Because your mines have far less energy at their disposal than my mines.

And I'm saying dominion sensors can sense the energy drain in the cloud

How?

You mean, how can the dominion sensors - which, more often than not, will see through a cloack - see an EM energy drain in a hydrogen cloud (energy drain which must exist and must be relatively significant due to conservation of energy)?
How can they not?

And I've already said that my mines don't replicate from pure energy:
"The only feasable solution is for the mines to recycle the material of the destroyed mines via a performant transporter."

Which, like your ZPE energy field, would somehow not be visible through the cloaking device.

Just like your mines gathering hydrogen from the cloud via magnetic fields and material from near the wormhole (which, much like the hydrogen, is largely unusable for making new mines) is not seen by dominion sensors.

And about the ZPE field - it already exists everywhere - even inside the mines (and the energy is extracted from the virtual particles from inside the mines).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No my question was what is the assumption

My ZPE generator can do much better

based on? Especially in this context where zero point energy is a made-up concept that very vaguely resembles a real scientific theory?

You mean, how can the dominion sensors - which, more often than not, will see through a cloack - see an EM energy drain in a hydrogen cloud

What the hell is an "EM drain"?

How can they not?

Begging the question. What makes you think they CAN in the first place? Do you know how their sensors work? Do you know what they're designed to detect?

Anyway, YOU were mister "Trek sensors can detect any energy source anywhere any time without exception!" and now you're here telling me that a group of self-replicating mines could produce terawatts of energy literally out of thin air (or rather, out of vacuum itself) without being detected. This seems less plausible to me than the mines making use of electric potential that is ALREADY THERE and thus blending into the background of the plasma field.

Just like your mines gathering hydrogen from the cloud via magnetic fields and material from near the wormhole (which, much like the hydrogen, is largely unusable for making new mines) is not seen by dominion sensors.

Correct, it would not. Starships traveling at warp collect hydrogen through their ramscoops, and cloaked vessels are able to mask that collection without being detected (in fact it is all but stated in "Face of the Enemy" that masking the magnetic field of the ramscoops is one of the things the cloaking device is specifically designed to do). Transporter beams, however, are much harder to mask, especially for someone who knows what to look for.

And about the ZPE field - it already exists everywhere - even inside the mines (and the energy is extracted from the virtual particles from inside the mines).

Begging the question once again, and this time I'll ask you specifically: what exactly is the "energy density" of a zero point field?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
Again with your improbable assumptions. So now star trek sensors can't detect huge magnetic fields used to extract hydrogen (cloacked ships will have their bussard collectors turned off - it's the only assumption that makes sense) and can't detect differences in electrostatic charge.
But, hey, we don't know how their sensors work - so let's just assume that they can't see something so visible.

About zero point energy - it doesn't "very vaguely resembles a real scientific theory"; it IS a scientific theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

And the ""energy density" of a zero point field" is enormous - infinite (but only a finite part can be used) according to the latest theories - see the wikipedia page.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
Again with your improbable assumptions. So now star trek sensors can't detect huge magnetic fields used to extract hydrogen

That's not an assumption, that's a canon fact.

cloacked ships will have their bussard collectors turned off

That IS an assumption, and an unlikely one.

and can't detect differences in electrostatic charge.

That they CAN detect such a thing is another assumption that you'll have to support wit a contextual example.

But, hey, we don't know how their sensors work - so let's just assume that they can't see something so visible.

Electrostatic charge isn't visible unless it's giving off light. Cloaking devices would take care of that.

About zero point energy - it doesn't "very vaguely resembles a real scientific theory"; it IS a scientific theory

No, because "extracting energy from the zero point energy field" is pseudoscience at best, where your "Zero point energy field" is a hypothetical construct whose nature and existence remain un-verified.

And the ""energy density" of a zero point field" is enormous - infinite (but only a finite part can be used)

Uh huh... and per square centimeter of vacuum space, what finite part can be used?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

newtype alpha
You're becoming absurd with your assumptions. Where exactly is it stated that cloacked ships have their collectors on, or that sensors can't detect huge magnetic fields - I can give you examples of star trek scanners detecting magnetic fields.

And now star trek scanners can't detect electostatic fields because they don't emit light? You know, trek sensors were shown do detect much more than mere em radiation. BTW, I was referring to the electrostatic charge from the hydrogen cloud - which isn't cloacked.

The existence of the zero energy field is experimentally verified today - at least research the subject before making such affirmations (I even gave you a link).

And today, we can extract limited amounts of energy from the vacuum - The Casimir Effect.
How much energy can be extracted depends on the tech that is used. In the case of the mines, they can extract much more than your "few thousand watts".

 

[Crazy Eddie]

newtype alpha
You're becoming absurd with your assumptions. Where exactly is it stated that cloacked ships have their collectors on

In "face of the enemy" it is stated that the Romulan Warbird's nullifier coils will be visible through the cloak as a "magnetic disturbance" unless their emissions are balanced. All that would be required to mask a magnetic field on a cloaked mine, therefore, is a similar nullifier coil assembly, which is part of the cloaking device.

Likewise in "The Search" we learn that a starship's energy emissions can still show through the cloak, but this can be mitigated by cutting power to low enough levels that they are not detectable. Thus electric fields (at least, relatively small ones) can be masked by the cloak.

These are not assumptions. These are references to canon. Do you have a similar response or are you just going to keep complaining until you get your way?

I can give you examples of star trek scanners detecting magnetic fields.

Fascinating as that is, you do not seem prepared to tell me HOW they detect electric fields, and therefore are in no position to tell me whether or not such a field would be detectable from hundreds of small devices orbiting the mouth of a wormhole.

And now star trek scanners can't detect electostatic fields because they don't emit light?

Did you or did you not state that electrostatic fields should be visible? Things that do not emit (or reflect) light are not visible. QED.

You know, trek sensors were shown do detect much more than mere em radiation.

What does an electrostatic field emit that trek sensors can detect (and that, furthermore, a cloaking device cannot jam?)

BTW, I was referring to the electrostatic charge from the hydrogen cloud - which isn't cloacked.

Heh... I guess in that context, you're right. The Cardassians would definately know that the overall electric charge of the cloud was diminishing by several fractions of a hundredth of a percent for some reason. If they're really on the ball they might even figure out that the largest voltage drop was localized right in front of the wormhole.

Congratulations. You've just proven that the Cardassians knew the minefield was there.

The existence of the zero energy field is experimentally verified today

I read the link you gave me (having already looked it up before you posted it). The only such verification is the Casimr Effect, from which the existence of the field is INFERRED, but about which almost nothing is known.

How much energy can be extracted depends on the tech that is used.

Uh uh... HOW MUCH?

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I almost regret stepping out of this conversation... the sheer illogic of it is enough to give all the Vulcans Abrams slaughtered a sense of relief that they don't have to live through it.

Honestly, I LOVE the idea of "zero point energy fields" but there is absolutely zero (pun intended) evidence that any such thing even exists. It's fantasy, nothing more, at this point. A fiction that some folks hope turns out to mirror some truth which we have yet to come remotely close to identifying.

That's not a critique of the concept as proposed. Just a statement of fact - such a thing may exist, or may not exist, and we have absolutely no reason to draw any conclusion (in REAL SCIENCE terms) at this point.

So let's stop treating it as more "valid" than it really is. It's the same "magic" that we see in every other storytelling conceit in science fiction... "magic" given a semi-plausible "sleight of hand" explanation.

Same as "warp drive" or "phasers" or "subspace radio" or "transporters" or any of the stuff that makes these stories able to be told.

In-universe... well... I agree that "quantum torpedoes" are almost certainly some form of crude "zero point" device. Not because it makes any sense, exactly, but because that's clearly what the intention of the storytellers was.

However, there's a huge difference between creating a device which creates an UNCONTROLLED reaction and one which is capable of creating a controlled, sustainable one.

How many years has it been since the first hydrogen bomb was set off, here on good ol' Planet Earth? And, to date, how many practical fusion powerplants have been built?

I see "ZPE" as being very much along the same lines, in "Trekkian" terms. Somebody figured out how to tap that field, and get a big burst of energy... but the energy can't be controlled or directed. Sort of like a big hydrogen bomb, today. Tap the field, and you destroy the equipment tapping the field, as the supposedly "infinite" energy flow seeps through.

You disagree? Fine... because it's entirely fictional. Even the supposed "theories" behind it don't rise to the definition of theories, or even of hypotheses... they're just wild "speculative fiction" at this point.

FUN speculative fiction, sure, but nothing more. If someday, we find any hint of evidence that it's real... I'll be the first to pop a cork on a bottle of Dom over it, but I'm not counting on that coming to pass... certainly not in my lifetime, and probably not in my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren's lifetimes, for that matter.

That said... the arguments here are fascinating... somehow, a science-fiction conceit... "zero point energy"... is treated as "hard science" but at the same time we're also being told that sensors can detect everything, at every resolution, at every range, without any issues with noise, interference, or even having to know what you're looking for.

You just magically hit the "find everything" button and you suddenly know everything which can be known about everything, everywhere, and "everywhen" for that matter. Apparently, that's how "Star Trek Sensors" work, huh?

You don't have to know what you're looking for, you don't have to worry about filtering out the noise... you don't have to identify the patterns you're looking for... they just magically appear in Okudagram fashion, when you tell Majel's voice to "find mysterious magical plotpoint."

How about this... look at what the SETI program has been doing. Yes, Trekkian "sensor" and "scanner" hardware is far more capable... but that just means far more data is being collected. Yes, Trekkian computers are far more capable... but they're still computers... they only do as they're programmed to do.

Yes, I'm sure that the 1701-D's computers could scan every bit of data ever collected by SETI in short order and find things we've missed so far. But the concept still remains... you have a ridiculous amount of information (for all practical purposes, the upper limit is INFINITY, remember) and unless you know what, pretty much EXACTLY, you're looking for, you're not gonna find it among the rest of the nearly-infinite data.

"Energy" isn't nearly as simple as some people appear to think it is.

Go spend some time reviewing collected data points, looking for patterns... Review a 20,000,000-data-point set (typical for vibrational analysis) and you'll learn just how difficult it is to derive MEANINGFUL RESULTS... no matter how effective your "measurement tools" happen to be. Trust me... doing so gave me a few gray hairs over the years!