Ships overall strength

[jpch]

How in the world(s) do you interpret that battle scene as Starfleet being "owned" by those warbirds?

Need i remind you that in TNG,it was stated that a Galaxy class is outmatched by 1 Warbird tactical wise.

That was never stated in the show, as far as I recall. If you have a quote/episode name, then I stand corrected.

So many? We only saw two definitive Akira deaths that I can recall, and both of those were in "Tears of the Prophets", during a battle in which everyone got their asses handed to them by those weapon platforms. And there really isn't nearly enough canon information on the Akira to make any kind of judgement on its tactical superiority or inferiority relative to the Galaxy.

and the Defiant might be on the same lvl of a Galaxy or slightly better

Not so slight. The Defiant's weapons do seem to be considerably more powerful than those of the Galaxy at short range. In fact, I would speculate that it outdoes even much larger ships such as the Galaxy in raw offensive output, by a fair margin, but only at short range. That's why Defiant is so small and maneuverable: it's able to deliver knockout blows when close, but that power drops off sharply as the range increases.

so yeah 3 warbirds would have wiped the floor with them.

Where, again, is the evidence that the D'deridex is tactically superior to the Galaxy? Or the Galaxy to the Akira? It's all speculation. As has been pointed out, there's tons of ambiguity around ship strength in Trek, as well as the added complication that one of the franchise's philosophies is that an exceptional captain and crew can render technological advantages moot anyway.

As for what was seen on screen during that particular episode... Starfleet was initially dividing its fire between four targets (the Romulans + the Prometheus), but the warbirds only had to deal with three. AND, one of the Defiants got hit by the EMH's errant torpedo, not only doing additional damage, but further convincing the Starfleet ships that the Prometheus was a threat. Despite these tactical disadvantages, the three Starfleet ships suffered no losses throughout the entire engagement, and did enough damage to at least one warbird that it blew up almost immediately when the Prometheus "switched sides".

Conclusion: other way around. Starfleet was winning, handily.

Maybe you should watch TNG cant remember the episode tin men i think ( its been 20 years since i saw it XD) when a Romulan Warbird hammers the Ent-D with a few disruptor shots and picard says they could have destroyed us,they were going easy,the D shields went down to 30% with 1 barrage(that is more then an indication).

the Akira's got ripped apart during the battle of chintoka etc...while the galaxy class stood its ground none were seen blowing up especially vs the defense platforms,and considering none were hero ships that's objective enough.

the Prometheus blowing up a warbird was thx to its tactical superiority and MVAM.

as for the Defiant yes it is highly likely that it has more firepower then a Galaxy but nowhere near the Defensive and overall Strength.

 

[MacLeod]

From what I remember of "Tin Man" the first warbird was basicall disposable, Didn't matter if they fried their engines or weapons system, all that mattere was preventeding the Federation from initiating cotact with Gomtuu

 

[Saito S]

Maybe you should watch TNG cant remember the episode tin men i think ( its been 20 years since i saw it XD) when a Romulan Warbird hammers the Ent-D with a few disruptor shots and picard says they could have destroyed us,they were going easy,the D shields went down to 30% with 1 barrage(that is more then an indication).

No, you are thinking of "The Defector", in which several shots that do basically nothing (Worf reports that shields are holding) are brushed off by Picard as "just a tap on the shoulder."

In "Tin Man", there is no such indication that they were holding back. Tam says that the attack was "incidental", a delaying tactic, which would imply the Romulans wanted the Enterprise to stay out of the way while they went for Tin Man. As MacLeod said, they were trying to accomplish the mission at any cost. Thus, they would need to be sure they disabled the Ent quickly. They weren't necessarily trying to destroy the ship, but they wouldn't be able to chance holding back.

As it was, seven shots were fired, taking away 70% of the Ent's shields. 10% shield loss per shot is reasonable for the main weapon of the Romulan's best (only? ) battleship, and does not indicate a massive disadvantage. We never got to see the Ent-D open fire on a Romulan warbird; for all we know, the results would be the same (around 10% shields lost for each strike).

the Akira's got ripped apart during the battle of chintoka etc...

What "etc"? No Akiras were explicitly seen going down in any battles BUT Chintoka during the war.

while the galaxy class stood its ground none were seen blowing up especially vs the defense platforms,and considering none were hero ships that's objective enough.

Tons of ships got ripped apart, many with only a few shots, indicating that shields weren't really doing much good against the weapon platforms. That was hardly a normal engagement. And there is little question that the Galaxy is one of Starfleet's more durable ships; that it holds up better than the much smaller Akira under such a powerful attack is hardly conclusive. And the question isn't just about which ship has a thicker hull, it's about overall tactical capability. There is no way to make any kind of definitive judgement on Galaxy vs. Akira.

the Prometheus blowing up a warbird was thx to its tactical superiority and MVAM.

When the three Prometheus sections began firing on the warbird, there were no shield effects. The phaser beams were cutting right into the hull, causing massive visible structural damage, and the ship exploded mere seconds later. This clearly shows the warbird had already taken heavy damage (it's shields were likely down before the Prometheus even fired on it), and contrasts against the Prometheus being able to only disable, and not destroy, the Nebula that Starfleet initially sent in pursuit.

Besides, the MVAM is a pointless bit of idiotic Voltron inanity. I certainly don't credit it with being able to blow up a ship that quickly simply by virtue of it's supposed superiority over other attack methods.

as for the Defiant yes it is highly likely that it has more firepower then a Galaxy but nowhere near the Defensive and overall Strength.

Why three categories? "Firepower", "defense", and "overall strength." What's "overall strength" mean?

And I wouldn't say it's "nowhere near". Not AS strong, perhaps, but look at the pounding that Defiant class ships take before going down in "Valiant" and "The Changing Face of Evil", and in "Way of the Warrior", it takes a similar drubbing and survives. And all of those are without shields.

 

[jpch]

Maybe you should watch TNG cant remember the episode tin men i think ( its been 20 years since i saw it XD) when a Romulan Warbird hammers the Ent-D with a few disruptor shots and picard says they could have destroyed us,they were going easy,the D shields went down to 30% with 1 barrage(that is more then an indication).

No, you are thinking of "The Defector", in which several shots that do basically nothing (Worf reports that shields are holding) are brushed off by Picard as "just a tap on the shoulder."

In "Tin Man", there is no such indication that they were holding back. Tam says that the attack was "incidental", a delaying tactic, which would imply the Romulans wanted the Enterprise to stay out of the way while they went for Tin Man. As MacLeod said, they were trying to accomplish the mission at any cost. Thus, they would need to be sure they disabled the Ent quickly. They weren't necessarily trying to destroy the ship, but they wouldn't be able to chance holding back.

As it was, seven shots were fired, taking away 70% of the Ent's shields. 10% shield loss per shot is reasonable for the main weapon of the Romulan's best (only? ) battleship, and does not indicate a massive disadvantage. We never got to see the Ent-D open fire on a Romulan warbird; for all we know, the results would be the same (around 10% shields lost for each strike).

the Akira's got ripped apart during the battle of chintoka etc...

What "etc"? No Akiras were explicitly seen going down in any battles BUT Chintoka during the war.

Tons of ships got ripped apart, many with only a few shots, indicating that shields weren't really doing much good against the weapon platforms. That was hardly a normal engagement. And there is little question that the Galaxy is one of Starfleet's more durable ships; that it holds up better than the much smaller Akira under such a powerful attack is hardly conclusive. And the question isn't just about which ship has a thicker hull, it's about overall tactical capability. There is no way to make any kind of definitive judgement on Galaxy vs. Akira.

the Prometheus blowing up a warbird was thx to its tactical superiority and MVAM.

When the three Prometheus sections began firing on the warbird, there were no shield effects. The phaser beams were cutting right into the hull, causing massive visible structural damage, and the ship exploded mere seconds later. This clearly shows the warbird had already taken heavy damage (it's shields were likely down before the Prometheus even fired on it), and contrasts against the Prometheus being able to only disable, and not destroy, the Nebula that Starfleet initially sent in pursuit.

Besides, the MVAM is a pointless bit of idiotic Voltron inanity. I certainly don't credit it with being able to blow up a ship that quickly simply by virtue of it's supposed superiority over other attack methods.

as for the Defiant yes it is highly likely that it has more firepower then a Galaxy but nowhere near the Defensive and overall Strength.

Why three categories? "Firepower", "defense", and "overall strength." What's "overall strength" mean?

And I wouldn't say it's "nowhere near". Not AS strong, perhaps, but look at the pounding that Defiant class ships take before going down in "Valiant" and "The Changing Face of Evil", and in "Way of the Warrior", it takes a similar drubbing and survives. And all of those are without shields.

namely TNG "Tin Man", a single D'Deridex pumped few shots the Ent-D's aft and dorsal shields, and that reduced the Ent-D's shields and shocked the ship.

the D'Deridex destroyed an unshielded Ent-D in TNG "Timescape". However, this took something like 10 pulses, plus however many pulses they had fired before we see them finish off the Ent-D. (The D'Deridex also displays a VERY impressive rate of fire in that episode actually,outmatching the Ent-D's best.)

 

[Cyke101]

the D'Deridex destroyed an unshielded Ent-D in TNG "Timescape". However, this took something like 10 pulses, plus however many pulses they had fired before we see them finish off the Ent-D. (The D'Deridex also displays a VERY impressive rate of fire in that episode actually,outmatching the Ent-D's best.)

This is fairly erroneous: the Enterprise blew up because of an overloaded power transfer caused a warp core breach when they were trying to help the warbird. The only reason why the warbird opened fire was because an alien (who took the form of a Romulan) attempted to cancel the transfer beam from killing its nest on the warbird. The feedback from the beam is what destroyed the Enterprise, and this is why Picard flew the runabout into the beam to cancel it, well after the warbird shot up the Enterprise. The episode and Picard's actions make it quite clear that the culprit was the transfer beam and the warp core breach.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Timescape