Shinzons Motive

[All Seeing Eye]

I'm not sure why nobody can understand what Shinzons motive was to wipe out Earth but from what I could see it was one of the conditions he had to fulfilll as part of the deal with the Romulan Military commanders.

His subspace communication to the Romulan commanders stood in the Romulan senate seemed to make that quite clear. It was that male commander who was adamant Shinzon conquer Earth and was demanding to know why he was delaying.
IMO these commanders were the ones who wanted Earth conquered and they weren't happy with the Romulan senates new friendly relations with the Federation so Shinzon promised them he'd conquer Earth and in exchange he be made Praetor so they clearly agreed.

Yes the Romulan commanders only wanted Earth conquered but Shinzon wasn't bothered about conquering Earth because to him it would be too much hassle and a waste of time. He had a Thaleron weapon, what better way to use it then to destroy Earth and get it out of the way.
If it wasn't a part of the deal with the Romulan commanders to conquer Earth he'd probably not have gone after it.

Earth to Shinzon was just like the Enterprise (in his own words) 'immaterial'.

The Romulan commanders want Earth subdued? ok i'll do it my own way and do it the easy way and just wipe out everyone on it.

Simple.

 

[Christopher]

I'm not sure why nobody can understand what Shinzons motive was to wipe out Earth but from what I could see it was one of the conditions he had to fulfilll as part of the deal with the Romulan Military commanders.

No, that's not right at all. Suran and the military never said anything about conquering Earth specifically. Shinzon promised them a new age of conquest and the fall of the Federation. But they didn't intend that conquest to involve the annihilation of a whole planet. When it became evident that Shinzon planned only destruction for its own sake rather than territorial expansion, Donatra rebelled and asked her fellow officers if they wanted their hands drenched in blood, and as I recall, they didn't look too happy at the prospect. Destroying Earth was entirely Shinzon's own idea.

And Shinzon couldn't care less about the deal he made with the Romulan military. He just told them what they wanted to hear so that they'd back his coup. Once he was in power, he ignored their wishes and pursued his own agenda, not caring if he dragged the empire down in the process, which is why the military turned on him.

The reason Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth was because it was Picard's home. He was haunted by the fact that he was merely a copy of Jean-Luc Picard. He believed it meant he had no life or identity of his own. He didn't believe he would have one until Picard was destroyed. By extension, he hated his humanity and wanted to rid himself of that as well by destroying humanity's homeworld.

 

[Trekker4747]

I'm not sure why nobody can understand what Shinzons motive was to wipe out Earth...

I'm not sure even the writer(s) of the movie know why.

Really, his anger should've been more geared towards Romulus considering they had a far greater hand in his life-long torment than the planet his DNA happened to originate from.

 

[DarKush]

I agree with Chris's take on Shinzon's motivation. It just leaves me shaking my head why they took the character in that direction. It still made more sense to me that he would turn the thalaron generator on Romulus and wipe out the people who had oppressed him and the Remans instead of on Earth and humans, who didn't have anything to do with that.

 

[Supervisor 194]

It would have been interesting to see the Enterprise called in to protect Romulus from Shinzon; as it was filmed it made little sense.

 

[Praetor]

I agree with Chris's take on Shinzon's motivation. It just leaves me shaking my head why they took the character in that direction. It still made more sense to me that he would turn the thalaron generator on Romulus and wipe out the people who had oppressed him and the Remans instead of on Earth and humans, who didn't have anything to do with that.

Two words: misplaced anger.

Don't think deeper into it. It's not worth it.

 

[Elemental]

I'm not sure why nobody can understand what Shinzons motive was to wipe out Earth but from what I could see it was one of the conditions he had to fulfilll as part of the deal with the Romulan Military commanders.

No, that's not right at all. Suran and the military never said anything about conquering Earth specifically. Shinzon promised them a new age of conquest and the fall of the Federation. But they didn't intend that conquest to involve the annihilation of a whole planet. When it became evident that Shinzon planned only destruction for its own sake rather than territorial expansion, Donatra rebelled and asked her fellow officers if they wanted their hands drenched in blood, and as I recall, they didn't look too happy at the prospect. Destroying Earth was entirely Shinzon's own idea.

And Shinzon couldn't care less about the deal he made with the Romulan military. He just told them what they wanted to hear so that they'd back his coup. Once he was in power, he ignored their wishes and pursued his own agenda, not caring if he dragged the empire down in the process, which is why the military turned on him.

The reason Shinzon wanted to destroy Earth was because it was Picard's home. He was haunted by the fact that he was merely a copy of Jean-Luc Picard. He believed it meant he had no life or identity of his own. He didn't believe he would have one until Picard was destroyed. By extension, he hated his humanity and wanted to rid himself of that as well by destroying humanity's homeworld.

This is the best explanation that can be derived from Shinzon's statements and actions. I personally really like Nemesis but I think that the poor job in explaining Shinzon's motives (in a believable way) is the movie's greatest fault. I don't think it's believable enough that Shinzon wants to destroy Earth, Picard, etc. just because he is a clone of Picard. It can be expained away but I just don't think it's as strong a motivation as it should have been.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Excuse me, but wasn't Shinzon created to destroy the federation? Wouldn't it have saved time to hardwire it into his personality while they were making him to destroy the enemy rather than reason with him after he came out of the bacta tank that it was a completely sensible idea?

Imagine the subconscious drumming in his mind egging this clone on to destroy the earthlings no matter what it is that is attempting to convince him otherwise that they deserve to live? It would be the finest way to stop him from going native after he assumed Picards life when his sleeper status began just in case he had some last minute compunction to betray his romulan masters because Vash, Nella, Anij or Bev had made the poor bastard fall in love with them and had taken him to their bed night after night until he didn't have any room left for anger because of the elation that comes from a good woman having a touch of dirty fun.

Not that this was probably what the writers would be thinking because they're obviously idiots.

Dude had less than a day till he was toast and this is how he spent it? Conquering two empires there was a decent enough chance he would never live long enough to rule over? And with almost his dying breath, he bothers to piggyback mount his best friends psychicrape of some dolly bird pushing 45? Not that I wouldn't sell my soul to do her laundry, Deanna and marina are fabulous in their own ways, but Shinzon is observing from a completely different perspective, and odds are the romulans had entire constellations of planets out there where humans were farmed and ranched for food and leather so I have no Idea how that that should have made his bucket list.

Fuckme. That would have been a superlative title for this movie. Star trek: The Bucket list.

I suppose Ahab was going to use his heart as a cannon ball to finally kill the whale, but I just don't buy that his motives where anything but programming he was too weak to countermand no matter what else he had going on in his life, even a bloody death rattle. Tom Riker should have been on the scene too to make an evil twin triptych (and then someone could have remarked about who received a bigger penis after the transporter accident that halved them not completely evenly.), since B4 was a clumsy literary feint on Shinzons part to overplay Picards Considerations of family and identity in his hindbrain as he was dealing his own visitation from such a familiar face.

Drown the frickers in frakking theme!

Pat Stewart should have been playing Shinzon, or that kid from tapesty or that kid form rascals who also played his dead nephew Rene who they owed big time since that kid probably thought that he would be getting his own show in the mid naughties, and it was kind of ridiculous that Shinzon didn't nab Picard and begin the exsanguination process at the first opportunity on the floor of the Rimulan Throne Room since it had only been a couple hours since he had murdered a couple humdred people in that building that who the hell would notice one more, However, seeing the Praetorian Guard Stormtroopers kicking the shit out of a naked wedding on Betazed and dragging a naked Picard away in a fire fight because Data quite literally pulled a phaser out of his ass would have been splendid too.

The ticking clock was stupid.

Romulans are cool because they're patient.

There was nothing patient about these dimwits.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Is everyone forgetting the most important line in the movie from Riker?

"You destroy Earth you cripple the Federation".

The Romulans wanted to control the Federation, Shinzons idea of conquering the Federation was a little more dramatic, they wanted to conquer Earth but he decided the more efficient military way would be to just destroy it which would make sense considering he's got a ship sized Thaleron weapon with which to do it with..

Simple. People try to think too deeply about his motive when the motive quite simply put is to conquer the Federation and to do that you take Earth out first.

 

[Christopher]

Is everyone forgetting the most important line in the movie from Riker?

"You destroy Earth you cripple the Federation".

No, we're not forgetting that. But you are forgetting numerous other details from the script -- the fact that the Romulans never mentioned Earth by name as something they wanted conquered, the fact that Donatra and the other generals turned against Shinzon when they realized he was trying to destroy Earth, the fact that Shinzon hated the Romulans and would not be guided by their desires, etc. You can't pick and choose among the evidence. An interpretation has to fit all the evidence to be valid.

Of course it's true that destroying Earth would be devastating to the Federation, but every other piece of evidence in the film disproves your assumption that Shinzon was just some lackey following the orders of the Romulans he despised. You really need to watch the film again and pay closer attention to the dialogue and characterization.


To Darkush and Supervisor 194: True, having Shinzon target Earth was contrived. The problem with ST movies is that they have to conform to the expectations of an action movie, including high stakes that the audience can relate to; so Earth ends up being threatened far more often in the movies than it is in the shows.

 

[FalTorPan]

You really need to watch the film again...

NOOOOOOOO!

 

[Meredith]

Boo Hoo I'm a clone, I attack Earth now cause I want to make my DNA donor to cry.


He had some weird form of teenage angst, though they should have given him a giant robot to pilot rather than a huge ship.

 

[Praetor]

Excuse me, but wasn't Shinzon created to destroy the federation? Wouldn't it have saved time to hardwire it into his personality while they were making him to destroy the enemy rather than reason with him after he came out of the bacta tank that it was a completely sensible idea?

Imagine the subconscious drumming in his mind egging this clone on to destroy the earthlings no matter what it is that is attempting to convince him otherwise that they deserve to live? It would be the finest way to stop him from going native after he assumed Picards life when his sleeper status began just in case he had some last minute compunction to betray his romulan masters because Vash, Nella, Anij or Bev had made the poor bastard fall in love with them and had taken him to their bed night after night until he didn't have any room left for anger because of the elation that comes from a good woman having a touch of dirty fun.

Not that this was probably what the writers would be thinking because they're obviously idiots.

Very good point, Guy.

Dude had less than a day till he was toast and this is how he spent it? Conquering two empires there was a decent enough chance he would never live long enough to rule over? And with almost his dying breath, he bothers to piggyback mount his best friends psychicrape of some dolly bird pushing 45? Not that I wouldn't sell my soul to do her laundry, Deanna and marina are fabulous in their own ways, but Shinzon is observing from a completely different perspective, and odds are the romulans had entire constellations of planets out there where humans were farmed and ranched for food and leather so I have no Idea how that that should have made his bucket list.

Fuckme. That would have been a superlative title for this movie. Star trek: The Bucket list.

I suppose Ahab was going to use his heart as a cannon ball to finally kill the whale, but I just don't buy that his motives where anything but programming he was too weak to countermand no matter what else he had going on in his life, even a bloody death rattle. Tom Riker should have been on the scene too to make an evil twin triptych (and then someone could have remarked about who received a bigger penis after the transporter accident that halved them not completely evenly.), since B4 was a clumsy literary feint on Shinzons part to overplay Picards Considerations of family and identity in his hindbrain as he was dealing his own visitation from such a familiar face.

Drown the frickers in frakking theme!

Pat Stewart should have been playing Shinzon, or that kid from tapesty or that kid form rascals who also played his dead nephew Rene who they owed big time since that kid probably thought that he would be getting his own show in the mid naughties, and it was kind of ridiculous that Shinzon didn't nab Picard and begin the exsanguination process at the first opportunity on the floor of the Rimulan Throne Room since it had only been a couple hours since he had murdered a couple humdred people in that building that who the hell would notice one more, However, seeing the Praetorian Guard Stormtroopers kicking the shit out of a naked wedding on Betazed and dragging a naked Picard away in a fire fight because Data quite literally pulled a phaser out of his ass would have been splendid too.

In short, this:

The ticking clock was stupid.

Romulans are cool because they're patient.

There was nothing patient about these dimwits.

I agree.

Is everyone forgetting the most important line in the movie from Riker?

"You destroy Earth you cripple the Federation".

No, we're not forgetting that. But you are forgetting numerous other details from the script -- the fact that the Romulans never mentioned Earth by name as something they wanted conquered, the fact that Donatra and the other generals turned against Shinzon when they realized he was trying to destroy Earth, the fact that Shinzon hated the Romulans and would not be guided by their desires, etc. You can't pick and choose among the evidence. An interpretation has to fit all the evidence to be valid.

Of course it's true that destroying Earth would be devastating to the Federation, but every other piece of evidence in the film disproves your assumption that Shinzon was just some lackey following the orders of the Romulans he despised. You really need to watch the film again and pay closer attention to the dialogue and characterization.


To Darkush and Supervisor 194: True, having Shinzon target Earth was contrived. The problem with ST movies is that they have to conform to the expectations of an action movie, including high stakes that the audience can relate to; so Earth ends up being threatened far more often in the movies than it is in the shows.

Well said, Christopher.

 

[Myasishchev]

I always figured the Romulans turned against Shinzon because he finally removed his perfectly cloaked planetkilling starship out of range of their homeworld.

This doesn't explain a whit of Shinzon's motivations, but it does explain why Romulans were willing to collaborate with a human slave up to the point the thalaron weapon of Damocles was no longer hovering over their V-brows.

 

[Gepard]

This doesn't explain a whit of Shinzon's motivations, but it does explain why Romulans were willing to collaborate with a human slave up to the point the thalaron weapon of Damocles was no longer hovering over their V-brows.

How the hell did Shinzon get a thalaron-emitting über-cloak superweapon ship of doom anyway? Did the Remans build it behind a really, really big rock-colored curtain?

And some to think of it, where'd the banned-by-every-other-government thalaron research come from? Or was there a Secret Laboratory stocked with genius Remen slaves hidden behind that curtain as well?

 

[Praetor]

This doesn't explain a whit of Shinzon's motivations, but it does explain why Romulans were willing to collaborate with a human slave up to the point the thalaron weapon of Damocles was no longer hovering over their V-brows.

How the hell did Shinzon get a thalaron-emitting über-cloak superweapon ship of doom anyway? Did the Remans build it behind a really, really big rock-colored curtain?

And some to think of it, where'd the banned-by-every-other-government thalaron research come from? Or was there a Secret Laboratory stocked with genius Remen slaves hidden behind that curtain as well?

Wasn't there an implication, perhaps in a novel, that it was stolen from the Dominion?

Alternatively, perhaps it came from The Vault.

Another thought regarding the Romulan militiary backing Shinzon: why?

If they wanted to stage a coup, why not simply stage a coup? It makes it seem like the only thing Shinzon offered them was the thalaron, and that they would have turned on their new 'Praetor' in a second if they thought there was a chance they could gain control of the weapon, or that it would be used against them. Indeed, I find it likely that they were planning to turn on him as soon as possible - his grandiose schemes for Earth destruction merely caused them to turn a little more sharply.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Odd theory.

The Reemans were there first.

What sort of technology did they use?

Cuold they have been really really advanced?

I mean they could have been preindustrial which would have been perfect for the colonizing postvVulcans, but if they were in possession of advanced technology but didn't have... Actually the otherway around works better, because only an incredibly violent and warlike race would have planet murdering starships as standard ships of the line rather than a special weapons platform and... Remember that telepathic Weapon which was all the rage during the "Age of Enlightenmenr" which would have cut through even technology hundreds of years in advance of the postVulcans, but doesn't work on people with peace in their hearts, apex some two thousand years earlier... Of course the likilihood of this very babylon 5 idea about old alien tech being better than modern local tech really depends on if the Reemans natural telepahy made them more sensitive to these psychic onslaughts or more steeled and defended from attack?

Sorry, I burped.

 

[Timo]

I dig the short story where Shinzon found the thalaron weapon as well as the cheapo Data copy when raiding a Tal'Shiar equivalent of Area 51 during the war...

Going just by the movie, though, I'd say we're left with three main scenarios.

1) Shinzon (or his Reman fellows toiling as slaves in secret Romulan weapon factories on Remus) is the original possessor of the thalaron weapon; he facilitates his revolt with that, and the Romulan military tags along in hopes of finally gaining power the Senate had not granted them before; Shinzon betrays the promises he made in exchange for this tagging-along, and pursues a personal vendetta against Earth.

2) The Romulan military or faction therein is the original possessor of the deadly weapon, and gives it to Shinzon to stage a slave rebellion; the military then uses the rebellion as an excuse to grab power; but somebody fumbles with the dead-man's-switch they had arranged for Shinzon, and the puppet Spartacus suddenly becomes a real threat who pursues his own crazed agenda.

3) A Romulan faction involving Senator Tal'Aura develops the thalaron weapon and eliminates the current Senate with it; both Shinzon and the military make use of the resulting chaos, simultaneously stepping in, and then stepping back a bit to sign an uneasy mutual truce; Shinzon then betrays this truce for his vengeful plans.

All of these leave the Romulans acting more or less rationally, while all of them have Shinzon act irrationally in his desire to go to immediate war with Earth...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Praetor]

I dig the short story where Shinzon found the thalaron weapon as well as the cheapo Data copy when raiding a Tal'Shiar equivalent of Area 51 during the war...

That's what I was thinking of! Do you happen to remember the name of that story?

Going just by the movie, though, I'd say we're left with three main scenarios.

1) Shinzon (or his Reman fellows toiling as slaves in secret Romulan weapon factories on Remus) is the original possessor of the thalaron weapon; he facilitates his revolt with that, and the Romulan military tags along in hopes of finally gaining power the Senate had not granted them before; Shinzon betrays the promises he made in exchange for this tagging-along, and pursues a personal vendetta against Earth.

2) The Romulan military or faction therein is the original possessor of the deadly weapon, and gives it to Shinzon to stage a slave rebellion; the military then uses the rebellion as an excuse to grab power; but somebody fumbles with the dead-man's-switch they had arranged for Shinzon, and the puppet Spartacus suddenly becomes a real threat who pursues his own crazed agenda.

3) A Romulan faction involving Senator Tal'Aura develops the thalaron weapon and eliminates the current Senate with it; both Shinzon and the military make use of the resulting chaos, simultaneously stepping in, and then stepping back a bit to sign an uneasy mutual truce; Shinzon then betrays this truce for his vengeful plans.

All of these leave the Romulans acting more or less rationally, while all of them have Shinzon act irrationally in his desire to go to immediate war with Earth...

Timo Saloniemi

If we ignore the story, I vote for a hybrid of two and three. The faction of which Tal'Aura is a part develops the weapon to stage a coup and eliminate the senate; the military is in on it, having gained the support of the Shinzon and the Reman infantry to ensure a tight hold on whatever power they can get their hands on in the coup. The demands of Shinzon as expressed by the Admirals in the Senate (which to me are the real in the whole thing) are a part of their 'concessions' to get him to cooperate, which are in turn Shinzon's platform for ascending to leadership of the Remans. Shinzon then stabs everyone in the back pursuant of his own agenda.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They said that Shinzon was a war hero. I assumed that this had been his ship when he was fighting the Dominion. The Warcrimes Commission should have been all over Shinzon and that ship plenty this long after the war.

But it takes 8 minutes to prime a weapon supposed targeting vessels whizzing about at 1/4 the speed of light... Imagine that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to assassinate Kennedy by posting him a bullet by mail?

The weapons only good for targeting fixed unmoving objects. Sure it poisons wells, but tactically it's shit in a star ship battle.