Shinzons Motive
- Thread starter All Seeing Eye
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Like the victors of the DW ever faced a war crimes tribunal.
At any rate, I'd like to beat my old drum and point out that the thalaron weapon is not any more dangerous than a photon torpedo. It's only cleaner. It's nothing more threatening than a neutron bomb: neutron bombs are only more dangerous because they are very slightly more tempting to use. The exact same deterrent which prevents the Romulans from stripping every planet in the Federation to the mantle, namely retaliation in kind by the ten thousand or so starships that are always wandering aimlessly about interstellar space, works just as effectively against the deployment of the thalaron device.
Shinzon's thalaron weapon's totally not something to get bent out of shape over. He could've reduced Earth's surface to an uninhabitable wasteland with pho-torps. Or by plowing the Scimitar into it, if he really felt that strongly about it.
I have the same complaint about the Genesis device. Yes, it's a doomsday weapon. They are ALL doomsday weapons. All you carry are doomsday weapons.
At any rate, I'd like to beat my old drum and point out that the thalaron weapon is not any more dangerous than a photon torpedo. It's only cleaner. It's nothing more threatening than a neutron bomb: neutron bombs are only more dangerous because they are very slightly more tempting to use. The exact same deterrent which prevents the Romulans from stripping every planet in the Federation to the mantle, namely retaliation in kind by the ten thousand or so starships that are always wandering aimlessly about interstellar space, works just as effectively against the deployment of the thalaron device.
Shinzon's thalaron weapon's totally not something to get bent out of shape over. He could've reduced Earth's surface to an uninhabitable wasteland with pho-torps. Or by plowing the Scimitar into it, if he really felt that strongly about it.
I have the same complaint about the Genesis device. Yes, it's a doomsday weapon. They are ALL doomsday weapons. All you carry are doomsday weapons.
I seriously doubt that. I know that's what we're supposed to believe, but there is no good reason for the Romulans to want to attack Earth. If Earth falls the Federation and Klingon Empire will reduce the Romulan Empire to a page in a history book. Why would the Romulan Empire want to fight a two-front war so soon after barely surviving the Dominion War?
^Seriously. From a purely military standpoint, Earth is practically worthless. It's the Utopia Planitia Yards that are the really high-value target in the Sol System.
From a MAD standpoint, Earth and every other homeworld's going to be a big target, but, rationally, you don't waste time killing your hostages in a first strike. Further, doing so gives the other side ZERO incentive to not avenge the innocent dead by targeting your population centers with their intact military. The only "advantage" to hitting Earth is decapitating the Federation government--and this is double-edged a sword with a very sharp second edge, because the moment you destroy the central executive, you have no one to negotiate a stop to the genocide that will shortly be arriving at your own doorstep.
From a MAD standpoint, Earth and every other homeworld's going to be a big target, but, rationally, you don't waste time killing your hostages in a first strike. Further, doing so gives the other side ZERO incentive to not avenge the innocent dead by targeting your population centers with their intact military. The only "advantage" to hitting Earth is decapitating the Federation government--and this is double-edged a sword with a very sharp second edge, because the moment you destroy the central executive, you have no one to negotiate a stop to the genocide that will shortly be arriving at your own doorstep.
The Romulans didn't.
It was the Reemans in charge now who wanted the Romulans dead. And if killing them all by throwing thepointy eared bastards against the Feds and the klingons seems poetic, so be it.
Anyway, Shinzon and the Reemans do not value Romulan life at all.
It was the Reemans in charge now who wanted the Romulans dead. And if killing them all by throwing thepointy eared bastards against the Feds and the klingons seems poetic, so be it.
Anyway, Shinzon and the Reemans do not value Romulan life at all.
Agreed.
However every federation world has it's own local government and leader, the Federation councilorary is more in line with the UN most probably. How would China be disrupted in the slighted by the destruction of the UN in New York?
Such an attack would cause disruption to the economy.
Just the UN building, or all of NYC? Earth is more relatable to NYC I suppose, but the UN building going down probably wouldn't be even as bad as the economy's reaction to 9/11--diminishing returns.
At the same time, it's an open question how integrated and interdependent the planetary economies are.
At the same time, it's an open question how integrated and interdependent the planetary economies are.
but with that holoconferencing tech we were seeing in DS9, does the UFP Council have to be so centralized and not only move in close enough to between earth and their homeworld, if not their homeworld, to communicate in real time?
Clearly the UFP after two hundred years, their worlds are very Dependant on one another, but would all that break down in the hours it would take for new councilors to be signed in and take their oaths of office, since every Councilor probably has a support staff of maybe hundreds down to loo cleaners and tennis coaches that chain of command applying an emergency temporary replacements wouldn't be too King Ralph?
I'm reminded of Assistant Editors Month at marvel some years (decades. I am old.) ago, when the bosses all went away to a convention and the underlings left behind had absolute power.
Clearly the UFP after two hundred years, their worlds are very Dependant on one another, but would all that break down in the hours it would take for new councilors to be signed in and take their oaths of office, since every Councilor probably has a support staff of maybe hundreds down to loo cleaners and tennis coaches that chain of command applying an emergency temporary replacements wouldn't be too King Ralph?
I'm reminded of Assistant Editors Month at marvel some years (decades. I am old.) ago, when the bosses all went away to a convention and the underlings left behind had absolute power.
You know, thinking about Shinzon's motives in NEM reminds me of:
Morjod's coup. The aim of which was to turn the Klingon Empire againist the Federation and the Romulans in order to ensure its destruction. Basically it was a desire for vengeance by a outcast Klingon that would be accomplished though the fall of Klingon society. Perhaps this is what Shinzon and his Reman followers wanted, the RSE locked in a two front war that would devastate Romulus?
There have been a lot of very good theories presented. Quite frankly, this subject almost makes my brain go into overload. Shinzon's motive is one of the bigger plot holes in this movie...but then again, that's not saying much.
Guy, you were exploring the possibility that Shinzon had been genetically altered to have the drive to wipe out the Fed. Unfortunately, that was one of the few areas that the movie did a pretty good job of fleshing out. The entire point of Shinzon and Picard meeting face to face was that Shinzon wanted Picard to know that they were of the same raw DNA, and if he had lived the life that Shinzon had, this is how he would have turned out.
That is one point that I don't find too much of a stretch from TNG. It is very likely that the Roms would have grown the Picard clone to the age that was needed, then just simply programmed it with what ever the mission was. A lot like they did with Geordi in The Mind's Eye.
Guy, you were exploring the possibility that Shinzon had been genetically altered to have the drive to wipe out the Fed. Unfortunately, that was one of the few areas that the movie did a pretty good job of fleshing out. The entire point of Shinzon and Picard meeting face to face was that Shinzon wanted Picard to know that they were of the same raw DNA, and if he had lived the life that Shinzon had, this is how he would have turned out.
That is one point that I don't find too much of a stretch from TNG. It is very likely that the Roms would have grown the Picard clone to the age that was needed, then just simply programmed it with what ever the mission was. A lot like they did with Geordi in The Mind's Eye.
Been a couple of years since I've watched the movie, but didn't he say the ship was constructed in secret? Very likely that during the war, where he was some sort of best of the best mystery Romulan General, he quietly shunted resources and supplies from the nominal supply chain to a secret base that was building the Scimitar. Already, at the time, thinking of overthrowing the Romulan senate.
As for the tech-- the cloak and the thalaron ray, for some reason, I've always thought he poached a lot of it from other places.
...Or was given a big bag of goodies by his benefactors - the people who wanted to have a scary slave revolt so that they could benefit from it.
I'm pretty sure that every Romulan politician worth his or her title has a secret stash of dirty things that he or she can use against opponents. Some might sit on a thalaron device, some merely on incriminating holoshots of the opponent and a domestic animal. But they all have a stash of something, and at some point they will see fit to put things from that stash to use. And the bigger the stakes, the more goodies come out of the bag. Whoever sponsored Shinzon would have seen fit to give him plenty of toys to play with...
And supposedly faster. The major advantage of a Genesis probe over a photon torpedo is that it only takes one to kill a planet. An entire saturation volley of photorps might fail to generate a result, but a far smaller volley of Genesis devices has good chances of total success.
You can't kill an entire planet with the photorps of just one starship - the ship will get destroyed faster than the planet. So you need a fleet of ships, or then a single-shot-kills weapon.
Whether the thalaron weapon, as installed on the Scimitar, really fits that bill... Depends. If it can be prepared while under cloak, then it really is a fast single-shot killer and thus an immense strategic advantage. If those seven minutes of preparation will render the cloaking system ineffective or even inoperable, then the Scimitar needs a fleet to protect her during the preparations, and the strategic advantage is lost.
Of course, your semantic mileage may vary. Some see MIRV-ICBMs as strategic weapons, but in terms of grand strategy, the AK-47 (that is, five million AK-47s properly distributed) is far more potent; an ICBM is merely a tactical system of limited scope in comparison.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm pretty sure that every Romulan politician worth his or her title has a secret stash of dirty things that he or she can use against opponents. Some might sit on a thalaron device, some merely on incriminating holoshots of the opponent and a domestic animal. But they all have a stash of something, and at some point they will see fit to put things from that stash to use. And the bigger the stakes, the more goodies come out of the bag. Whoever sponsored Shinzon would have seen fit to give him plenty of toys to play with...
And supposedly faster. The major advantage of a Genesis probe over a photon torpedo is that it only takes one to kill a planet. An entire saturation volley of photorps might fail to generate a result, but a far smaller volley of Genesis devices has good chances of total success.
You can't kill an entire planet with the photorps of just one starship - the ship will get destroyed faster than the planet. So you need a fleet of ships, or then a single-shot-kills weapon.
Whether the thalaron weapon, as installed on the Scimitar, really fits that bill... Depends. If it can be prepared while under cloak, then it really is a fast single-shot killer and thus an immense strategic advantage. If those seven minutes of preparation will render the cloaking system ineffective or even inoperable, then the Scimitar needs a fleet to protect her during the preparations, and the strategic advantage is lost.
Of course, your semantic mileage may vary. Some see MIRV-ICBMs as strategic weapons, but in terms of grand strategy, the AK-47 (that is, five million AK-47s properly distributed) is far more potent; an ICBM is merely a tactical system of limited scope in comparison.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure of that, Timo. The Scimitar could presumably fire twenty-seven pho-torps in a single volley, and if it's at all like the E-D and E-E, multiple volleys per second. And it could fire from cloak. Even twenty-seven forty megaton detonations would be devastating; five or six volleys of twenty-seven forty megaton detonations would, unless I'm overestimating the effectiveness of over a hundred tsar bombas, be so apocalyptic as to present little qualitative difference from a thalaron or Genesis attack, at least for anyone on the planet.
(We also have to take into account the Scimitar's fifty-two disruptors, which are shown on the D'Deridex as being effective in orbital bombardment. However, there is some reason to believe that many of these disruptors are short-range and defensive in nature--anti-Defiant weapons, so to speak.)
(We also have to take into account the Scimitar's fifty-two disruptors, which are shown on the D'Deridex as being effective in orbital bombardment. However, there is some reason to believe that many of these disruptors are short-range and defensive in nature--anti-Defiant weapons, so to speak.
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