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Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread

I agree that here Dukat stands revealed as his true self, all the excuses and masks stripped away by his recent losses, and I sort of agree that his arc is theoretically over. However, I don't mind where he goes from here (I can't wait to see what Shatnertage thinks!). That's basically because I see Dukat as a warped man with the personality of a young child, a little boy's ego in a man's body. A little boy's ego is both incomplete and vulnerable (dependent on others to validate him) and very selfish, as an infant of course is. Everything he does is about "being a good boy", earning approval and love, and that's what Dukat wants.

I see Dukat as never having left infanthood, in the sense of needing reinforcement from others, and in his case that's dangerous because he also failed to make the transition to genuine empathy with others. Empathy isn't just about the similarity between sapient beings, but about the differences too. An infant eventually learns that other people are alien, distant and the centre of their own worlds, and that empathy means acknowledging this just as much as it does understanding/sharing their emotions. Dukat, I think, doesn't. He's still the centre of his universe and everyone else orbits him. So that's two ways in which he's still an infant, and his need to have his worth reinforced combined with lack of true empathic understanding leads to the delusional idea that other people exist to validate him. His ego must be fed, and they must do it.

Dukat, in my opinion, sees everyone and everything else as props in his own life. Their job is to reinforce his ego and let him know that he's a heroic and noble person, either by supporting him (Damar) or antagonizing him "unfairly" (Kira, Weyoun). It's no wonder he had to create illusionary Damars, Kiras and Weyouns when he lost the real ones, because Dukat needs the reinforcement. That's what they're for. Why can't mean old Kira and Weyoun recognize his greatness?

Dukat wants to be seen as "noble" (as far as his own child-like sense of the noble can carry him), as a "good man" (really: good boy). And he surrounds himself with people to reinforce that illusion - Ziyal the blindly adoring daughter, Damar the lieutenant who is loyal but non-threatening (he's too unimaginative to challenge Dukat's position, yet ultimately he's more than the "typical" Cardassian military thug - he's intelligent enough to appreciate Dukat). Dukat has comfort women who will respond to his "generosity" if only because they know they're trapped and it could be far worse.

I also think Cardassia itself was just the same, a piece in his fantasy, where all that really mattered was him and the feeding of that desperate ego. If daughters and comfort women and lieutenants fulfilled his need to be the noble, benevolent master (again, to the extent that he understands "noble", which is through the prism of a child-like selfishness), then Cardassia fulfilled his need to be the servant. In his own mind, he's a good son to Cardassia, just as he's a good patriarch to his extended Cardassian/Bajoran community-family. Ultimately, though, he's every bit as disloyal a son as he is an abusive patriarch - both roles are ultimately to fuel his own need to experience a sense of his great worth.

And the tragedy of Dukat, as I see it, is that due to his inability to truly see perspectives other than his own, he never, ever grasped an opportunity to actually become a better person. He always chose to pretend to himself that's he was great, and get others to tell him he was, rather than trying to become great. He's completely trapped in his own lie. His mind is yoked to his runaway ego, which needs reinforcement or he'll fall apart. Weyoun has the Founders. Dukat is his own Founder.

As I say, my conclusion is that, spiritually speaking, Dukat never left infanthood. Everything is made to conform to his internalized need to reinforce his worth - every value of his culture, good and bad, warped by it, taken on in a completely selfish way that makes him a twisted, delusional idea of a "good Cardassian" who doesn't actually respect or understand the values he's adapting. And the traumatized selfish little boy in that man's body ended up, like so many traumatized selfish little boys when they grow older, leading war fleets and taking power, to make the universe acknowledge his worth - him, at the apex and the centre, his ego stoked by his power.

For Dukat in Season Six, as I see it, everything is fully safe and controlled with him at the centre, until the universe crashes down when he loses Terok Nor again, along with Ziyal and (in a way) Damar. The loyal lieutenant can't shoot the pet daughter and I can't lose my war and my empire, that just can't happen! And Dukat ended up obsessed with taking down Sisko, who is - shock and horror - someone like Dukat; a challenger. I honestly think the reason Dukat fixates on Sisko is because Sisko is the only other person Dukat actually truly recognizes as another person. And that's because Sisko can't orbit Dukat like everyone else is made to, because he's a rival for Dukat's position. Sisko is in Dukat's office, he's got Kira's respect, the Bajorans' respect, he's a strong, noble military leader, a loving father, victorious in battle - the little boy has encountered, of all things, a rival. And this universe isn't big enough for both of them. The universe revolves around Dukat - Sisko is cthulhu to Dukat. An other, the challenger. He usurps reality itself. And I think ultimately Dukat also knows that ultimately he'll lose - because he's just a selfish little boy and Sisko...Sisko is a man. Dukat can only play at those qualities I listed - Sisko truly embodies them.

And without risking spoilers, the end of Dukat's story ran very, very true for me. I'm a supporter of it.
 
Wow... I've never thought of it in that way before, but I know exactly what you mean! It makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for sharing DN! :techman:
 
That's the first explanation I've ever heard that makes his fixation with Sisko (instead of the much more logical Damar, Kira, or Garak, all of which I still think would've been much more interesting and logical as a target for Dukat's hate) make some sense.
 
If I can add something to what Deranged Nasat has said:

And that's because Sisko can't orbit Dukat like everyone else is made to, because he's a rival for Dukat's position. Sisko is in Dukat's office, he's got Kira's respect, the Bajorans' respect, he's a strong, noble military leader, a loving father, victorious in battle - the little boy has encountered, of all things, a rival.

Plus, he's the Emissary--beloved by the Bajoran people, even though he's barely set foot on their planet. Dukat spent the prime of his career there "helping" the Bajorans and they hate him. What he wouldn't give for five minutes of that adoration, which Sisko isn't even sure he wants! No wonder why he hates him so much.

One question--when Sisko hit Dukat from behind and knocked him out, did he say, "You're not an evil man?" That's what it sounded like.

I'm amazed again with what they could do with two guys on a soundstage here. The more I think critically about it, it seems that this is about as close to live theater as Trek gets, which might be why Brooks was so strong--this is what he does.

And it's OK for Dukat to deliver rambling, grandiloquent speeches, because we've known for six years that he likes to hear himself talk. So all the stars align here.
 
If I can add something to what Deranged Nasat has said:

And that's because Sisko can't orbit Dukat like everyone else is made to, because he's a rival for Dukat's position. Sisko is in Dukat's office, he's got Kira's respect, the Bajorans' respect, he's a strong, noble military leader, a loving father, victorious in battle - the little boy has encountered, of all things, a rival.

Plus, he's the Emissary--beloved by the Bajoran people, even though he's barely set foot on their planet. Dukat spent the prime of his career there "helping" the Bajorans and they hate him. What he wouldn't give for five minutes of that adoration, which Sisko isn't even sure he wants! No wonder why he hates him so much.

Exactly! And I think this also ties into his new stated desire, by this episode's end, to destroy Bajor and all Bajorans - "I should have killed them all!" I know that's something else that comes a bit out of left field, but I think that it works well too. Because the Bajorans have shown that they can give that adoration he craves, only they wouldn't give it to him. Dukat being Dukat, he can't accept that the reason is his own abuses - it has to be their malice. They rejected the benevolence of Dukat and sided with the rival. So they must now die. Sisko is stealing everything, making everything wrong and non-Dukatcentric, and the wretched Bajorans have embraced him.
 
One question--when Sisko hit Dukat from behind and knocked him out, did he say, "You're not an evil man?" That's what it sounded like.

He says "And that is why you're not an evil man!" after Dukat admits that he wants to kill all Bajorans.

Excellent summary, BTW, Deranged Nasat! :techman: It sums up my feelings on Dukat perfectly and makes his story from here on out make perfect sense.
 
Whoa, Deranged Nasat wrote a freakin' essay! And a really good one too.

Seriously, do you have a psychology background? Because that was so well done!
 
Deranged Nasat, that was a very well thought out analysis and I agree with pretty much all of it. Dukat's actions post-Waltz aren't out of character, and I completely agree about why he blames Sisko for Ziyal's death and not Damar, it's the culmination of all the resentment that has been building up ever since Sisko had the audacity to sit behind his desk.

But one of the great things about Dukat was that you could always see the wheels turning inside his head and how he used to justify his self-serving acts as though they were in service to the greater good. He was never a good guy, but he wanted others to see him that way to justify his own image of himself. With Waltz, Dukat finally gives up the pretence and accepts that he's evil, so in his later appearances he's more of a run of the mill villain.
 
In some of them. In "Covenant," I'd say he's still nuanced, just in a very different way. The acting is a treat in that episode; I'd say Marc Alaimo definitely studied a certain type of person before shooting began.

I have to think he watched film of cult leaders, because he really nailed it.
 
The more I think critically about it, it seems that this is about as close to live theater as Trek gets, which might be why Brooks was so strong--this is what he does.

I think Brooks is always at his best when being 'theatrical': monologuing, or doing the grand gesture speech. It's when his cadences work, like great jazz.
 
Covenant did try to bring back some of the nuance to the character, and it does make sense that he'd try and become the anti-Emissary to stick it to Sisko, but I'm not a fan of how that episode ends. He just reverts back to being an evil guy that tries to kill everyone.
 
^ Agreed. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what TheGodBen has described in his spoiler was one of the downfalls of an otherwise excellent episode.

The one part of that episode that always sticks with me is Dukat praying, alone and in earnest, to the Pah-wraith asking for direction. It's the idea that both Dukat and the Pah-wraith might both share the belief that what there are doing is right for Bajor and the rest of the universe.
Even if the Pah-wraith are still evil and merely manipulating Dukat to their own ends then at least Dukat imagining that he'll gain redemption and acceptance from them fits nicely into his character arc as laid out above.
 
In the end, though, that evil defines what he is. He deserves to be in Dante's Ninth Circle.

And just like Fra Alberigo, that's exactly what he got. He sold his soul to the Pah-Wraiths and they took him to hell while his body still lived. Just deserts, if you ask me.
 
In the end, though, that evil defines what he is. He deserves to be in Dante's Ninth Circle.

And just like Fra Alberigo, that's exactly what he got. He sold his soul to the Pah-Wraiths and they took him to hell while his body still lived. Just deserts, if you ask me.

Agreed. :techman:
 
Dukat always reminded me of Ralph Fienne's character in Schindler's List. Having just seen "Waltz," the resemblance is even more uncanny.
 
^ Yes, I think that episode would have been much better if they'd have played Jack as more of a chess player type who's manipulating everyone around him and has a genuine aura of menace. I'm thinking someone along the lines of Josh Holloway (Sawyer from Lost). Give him a scene where he beats the crap out of a guard--or better yet, a Jem'Hadar, and you'd have a great character.

But now I'm going to talk about...

"The Magnificent Ferengi"


From the blurb, I thought this one was going to be painful. I even pegged the over/under for how long it took Mrs. Shatnertage to throw in the towel (as it turns out, I should have bet the under). But it was actually a fun episode, where we see that there are many different kinds of heroism.

.

Though I generally enjoy the comedic episodes of DS9 and TNG, they usually provoke little more than a grin and feelings of warmth. There is a moment in this episode, however, where they decide to go very, very broad, and thanks to the performances of Jeffrey Combs and Josh Pais, I was belly laughing for about ten straight minutes. I was particularly caught off guard by Gaila in said scene, since, unlike Brunt, he didn't have any particular comic nuances in the previous episode in which he was featured. By the time he hits "...after I risked my LIFE..." I thought I was going to piss my pants. And I think Brunt's scream qualifies him as a sissy, even by the standards of a race that uses high pitched monkey noises to alert one another.

The only line in previous Trek that even came close to this effect on me was Worf's much more subtle summary of Alexander's behavior at school on TNG, something about telling a "falsehood."
 
^ Glad TGB responded to my question. I see where you're coming from. If you ever want to know what someone from Las Vegas thinks of how Vegas is portrayed in Trek (I have a feeling that it's going to be getting some holodeck lounge time) I will certainly share my thoughts.

Some time to watch DS9 last night begot...

"The Begotten"

As a father, this episode was a real joy to watch. I usually despise the "stranger to parent in 40 minutes or less" Trek episodes, but this one was an exception, almost solely because of what Rene Auberjonois put into it.

In his first scene with the changeling, on one level I was aware that this was a guy in heavy makeup talking to a glass of apple juice. But on the other, he absolutely sold the reality of his character discovering parenthood. Nice how this built on that conversation with Sisko about how Sisko still worries about Jake.

And I hate to be negative, but Auberjonois had more chemistry with that glass of apple juice than Avery Brooks often has with the actor who's been playing his son for the past five years. No hammock time, though, but you can't ask for everything.

Having Dr. Mora show up really captured the parent/grandparent dynamic very, very well. Unlike most parent/grandparent dynamics, though, Odo and Mora were sensitive people who realized that they both were at least partially wrong. By caring for the little changeling, they came to accept each other. Very touching.

Then there's the B story of Kira giving birth to the O'Briens' baby. Am I the only one who was reminded of Mr. Homn banging that gong every time Lwaxana took a bite in "Haven" (fond memories) by the Bajoran birth ritual?

Having been closely involved (well, as closely as possible) in the births of two children in a hospital that I hope is on par with the current state of obstetrics, I'll just say that Bajorans give birth much differently than humans do. It's a lot less messy and quieter, with less drugs and cursing all around.

I liked the tussles between O'Brien and Shakaar, too.

Back to the main story--it was heart-breaking when the little changeling died, again mostly because of how Rene Auberjonois. I shouldn't have been at all invested in a tube of blue ooze, but I'll admit that I teared up at the end. For a similar episode, see VOY: "Real Life," which started out as a holodeck farce but, by the end, really tugged on your heartstrings thanks to Robert Picardo's superb acting.

Nice bit of continuity when Odo shapeshifts into the Tarkelian hawk: his "real" uniform crumples to the floor.

And the final scene with Kira and Odo, ending with them walking off together with a shared understanding, was the last bit of wonderfulness in the episode.

As you can tell, I really liked this one.
I'm Midway through Season 5, so I watched this last night, I had forgotten how awesome this episode is, I think this may be my favorite Odo-Centric episode, and the balance of the B-Story with Kira given birth to the O'Brien's baby and the ending where both Odo and Kira are feeling the loss of their respective children was fantastic. Plus the whole drama of Odo coming to grips with his feelings for Doctor Mora and hearing Doctor Mora's side of the story, just wraps it up in a fabulous bow. And an additional bonus is that Odo gets his abilities back, which serves the story later

Rene Auberjonois did a fantastic
 
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