Big difference, though..."gay" doesn't include "desire to kill" or "desire to worship in a certain way."
Shatnertage's Mostly-1st-Time Watch Thread
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That's why it is called allegory. Successful allegory, because we can really relate to Odo's desire to change the disposition of the child, but it is made quite clear in the episode that this is a genetic trait and not a lifestyle choice.
I understand what allegory is, thank you.
I think, however, that you are making an unjustifiable stretch given that you've made a comparison between homosexuality and something malevolent that actually overrides free will. It's almost as inappropriate and absurd as comparing homosexuality to the Borg.
I think, however, that you are making an unjustifiable stretch given that you've made a comparison between homosexuality and something malevolent that actually overrides free will. It's almost as inappropriate and absurd as comparing homosexuality to the Borg.
I think it is pretty clear that the traits the child was displaying are socially acceptable and perfectly natural traits for Jem'Hadar. The only free will being overridden is when Odo tries to control and subvert the youth into behaving in a way that conforms with Odo's conceptions of "good" and "bad".
I'm quoting this to point out that you are the only one making these comparisons. I have explained in each post the comparison rests on the genetic predisposition of both traits, and how the episode highlights the difficulties when genetic predisposition does not match what is currently considered socially acceptable.
Nerys Ghemor said:
I'm quoting this to point out that you are the only one making these comparisons. I have explained in each post the comparison rests on the genetic predisposition of both traits, and how the episode highlights the difficulties when genetic predisposition does not match what is currently considered socially acceptable.
I think that's kind of stretching it.
Actually, the whole "letting the Jem'Hadar live the way his nature tells him to" is a little depressing to me. It suggests we can never be more than the sum of what's come before us, or that we can't fight against our demons. I like Captain Kirk's "I won't kill...today" speech a lot better, because it gives us hope that, even though we're just a few generations out of the trees, we can strive to be better.
Actually, the whole "letting the Jem'Hadar live the way his nature tells him to" is a little depressing to me. It suggests we can never be more than the sum of what's come before us, or that we can't fight against our demons. I like Captain Kirk's "I won't kill...today" speech a lot better, because it gives us hope that, even though we're just a few generations out of the trees, we can strive to be better.
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There are a few Jem'Hadar stories later on that serve to show the race in a more varied light. I don't think that's a spoiler, necessarily, since I could mean just about anything by that statement!
Um, no.
You compared homosexuality to being nothing but a living, breathing killing machine. You went down that road first; sorry if you don't like what you see when another species is substituted that fits the same metaphor, and really illustrates how inappropriate your comparison was.
First Point: The Borg does not fit the same metaphor because the Borg are not "born that way."
Second Point: YOU are making that comparison. I have been quite clear in only discussing it as an allegory based on genetic predisposition for something that is considered socially unacceptable.
Third Point: I find it your unwillingness to accept that this is natural behavior for the Jem'Hadar curious. The writers were very clever in that they want the viewer to sympathize with Odo and Odo's attempt to treat these Jem'Hadar urges as behavioral choices which can be controlled, even though everyone else on the station keeps reminding Odo that this is not a matter of choice; the Jem'Hadar child is predisposed to be like this. The only way to keep many viewers from villanizing the Odo character would be to make the genetic predisposition something we as a society find universally wrong. All ends well though, as Odo realizes that even though he doesn’t like it he must accept it.
Neither are the Jem'Hadar. They aren't "born" that way; they're "made" that way. That's a huge difference.
I see what you're saying that it could be an allegory for homosexuality, but I do think it's a stretch. Homosexuality is something that people are naturally born with, but the urge to kill and worship the Founders isn't something that the Jem'Hadar have naturally - it's forced on them by the Founders themselves. Nobody forces a person's natural sexuality upon them.
I'm pretty sure they're 100% constructed.
I figure that the the jem'hedar are 100% created, based off of a standard template, given what we know from later episodes(the little ship that went on a little trip) and the fact that while not being cannon per se, its imply'd in production that the jem hedar shroud is something borrowed from the Tosk....
And I to think you are stretching credibility by saying being gay is allegorical to being an addicted Founder worshipping killing machine created in a lab.
And I to think you are stretching credibility by saying being gay is allegorical to being an addicted Founder worshipping killing machine created in a lab.
That's not what I'm saying, that is the comparison you are drawing. I am pointing out that Odo is treating the Jem'Hadar characteristics as a lifestyle choice, and by the end of the episode accepts that it is not a choice and cannot be changed, no matter how undesireable Odo may find it personally.
And that's a load of crap. We're sentient beings, we may not be able to prevent the urges but we can damn sure overrule them if we choose to. Plenty of human beings right here on Earth have anger issues that stem from their genetics, but that doesn't give them a right to act on their violent impulses because "it's who they are". No, they get that shit under control or they go to prison.
^ As Captain Kirk said:
"We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill, today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill, today."
"We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill, today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill, today."
The only thing that works for me in this ep. is the discussion of Ketracel-white & how The Founders use it regarding the Jem'Hadar.
It is in my nature to be mildly amused by episodes like...
"Civil Defense"
I'm thinking that they've got a big, FX-lavish episode coming up, so they needed to save some money and decided that a bottle show about the station trying to kill them would be the best way to do so.
This is BobbyTrapTrek, which doesn't do a lot for me, but YMMV. The prerecorded announcements by Dukat were actually kind of funny. They reminded me of the planet Magrathea's answering machine messages in HHGTTG.
It was a little strange that Sisko keeps figuring out how to do stuff like escape, blow open the door, and contain the reactor explosion while his chief engineer just nods.
So at first it was a pretty bad episode, but then the Cardassians showed up and it got a lot better. I've also got to say that pairing Odo and Quark off together was a good move, because pretty much anything they do together is gold.
How about that poor guy who got vaporised by the death ray ball?
I loved it when Dukat showed up, calmly walking around Ops while the death ray ball was shooting out death rays, and made himself tea, then reactivated the death ray ball. And him and Garak shared some of their history. His ultimatum to Kira wasn't that great, but his shock when he wasn't able to beam off was great. I also liked how, even facing death, he continued to speak and speak and speak...and try to impress Kira.
The whole thing falls apart in the resolution, which is basically...??? At first they tried to fix it themselves. Then they needed Dukat to reset the program. Then they were going to take the laser something offline. Then Sisko finally did something which kind of contained the explosion. It just wasn't a very satisfying conclusion, because it seemed like it was just a bunch of random stuff happening, and no one had to make a leap or risk anything. It's not like "Dukat has to trust Kira if he's going to save the station" or anything like that. It was just technobabble and shuffling cylinders around in a way that brought back memories of "The Naked Now." And there's no real reason for the program to shut itself off, since it has to know that the station wasn't destroyed. Why didn't they just have Dukat's ship beam the reactor away from the station? Or just fire on the station until its shields fell?
And that was absolutely the most leisurely walk towards a ticking bomb I've ever seen.
So this wasn't exactly a good episode, but the Odo/Quark and Cardassian parts were at least enjoyable.
"Civil Defense"
I'm thinking that they've got a big, FX-lavish episode coming up, so they needed to save some money and decided that a bottle show about the station trying to kill them would be the best way to do so.
This is BobbyTrapTrek, which doesn't do a lot for me, but YMMV. The prerecorded announcements by Dukat were actually kind of funny. They reminded me of the planet Magrathea's answering machine messages in HHGTTG.
It was a little strange that Sisko keeps figuring out how to do stuff like escape, blow open the door, and contain the reactor explosion while his chief engineer just nods.
So at first it was a pretty bad episode, but then the Cardassians showed up and it got a lot better. I've also got to say that pairing Odo and Quark off together was a good move, because pretty much anything they do together is gold.
How about that poor guy who got vaporised by the death ray ball?
I loved it when Dukat showed up, calmly walking around Ops while the death ray ball was shooting out death rays, and made himself tea, then reactivated the death ray ball. And him and Garak shared some of their history. His ultimatum to Kira wasn't that great, but his shock when he wasn't able to beam off was great. I also liked how, even facing death, he continued to speak and speak and speak...and try to impress Kira.
The whole thing falls apart in the resolution, which is basically...??? At first they tried to fix it themselves. Then they needed Dukat to reset the program. Then they were going to take the laser something offline. Then Sisko finally did something which kind of contained the explosion. It just wasn't a very satisfying conclusion, because it seemed like it was just a bunch of random stuff happening, and no one had to make a leap or risk anything. It's not like "Dukat has to trust Kira if he's going to save the station" or anything like that. It was just technobabble and shuffling cylinders around in a way that brought back memories of "The Naked Now." And there's no real reason for the program to shut itself off, since it has to know that the station wasn't destroyed. Why didn't they just have Dukat's ship beam the reactor away from the station? Or just fire on the station until its shields fell?
And that was absolutely the most leisurely walk towards a ticking bomb I've ever seen.
So this wasn't exactly a good episode, but the Odo/Quark and Cardassian parts were at least enjoyable.
Fair warning before I say anything else -- one of the absolute worst episodes of the series according to the overwhelming majority I've encountered is coming up right after this one. So if you throw your hands up in utter distaste, know that you aren't alone and that DS9 fans aren't going to be shocked by your response to it.
At any rate, the characterization in "Civil Defense" once again saves it for me, as is typical of many episodes from the first three seasons, especially the first season. Dukat is amazing, Odo and Quark are great together like usual, but the climax is pretty meh.
As for your prediction of a big-budget episode coming up, well there is one that probably cost a decent enough bit soon enough but there are two episodes in particular (no spoilers, don't worry) later on in the season that probably ate up a lot of money.
At any rate, the characterization in "Civil Defense" once again saves it for me, as is typical of many episodes from the first three seasons, especially the first season. Dukat is amazing, Odo and Quark are great together like usual, but the climax is pretty meh.
As for your prediction of a big-budget episode coming up, well there is one that probably cost a decent enough bit soon enough but there are two episodes in particular (no spoilers, don't worry) later on in the season that probably ate up a lot of money.
I've heard rumors about "Meridian," but I've wanted to experience for myself just how bad it might be, so I don't know anything specific. Having seen a lot of things DS9 does right--and wrong--I'm curious to see just what has people so bothered by this one.
Right now, "If Wishes Were Horses" is my yardstick for DS9 suckitude.
Right now, "If Wishes Were Horses" is my yardstick for DS9 suckitude.
I must admit, I look forward to seeing if that yardstick is lowered!
Do you have a current yardstick of awesomeness?
Do you have a current yardstick of awesomeness?
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