Shame and frustration

[An Officer]

Very glad to see discussion (with a little side order of snark from some) is alive and well in MISC! We are all free to hold our own opinions of course... ...and thank goodness we do not all think the same!

Do you fellers have anything to add to help the OP, or your favourite pastimes lie elsewhere? The love and friendliness is overwhelming!

 

[iguana_tonante]

You don't very glad to see discussion, tho. Maybe it's just my impression.

Nasat knows he has my ear whenever he wants to talk, and my shoulder whenever he's feeling down. I speak with facts.

 

[An Officer]

^ Discussion - great! Snark - not necessary. Sojourner and TSQ, for example, no harm in those posts at all... you, not so much. I speak of your use of terms like "bullshit"! Really? This is discussion for you? Okay, our opinions on this differ! I think you are verging on trolling when you use profanities rather than straightforward non offensive discussion. And "prey on people"? I'm preying on the OP now? I see.

The first is not necessary, and the second is quite an over reaction. I really do not think your approach is particularly respectful to myself or the original poster, considering the problems mentioned. Hardly a calming, helpful, friendly atmosphere you are helping to create... I would imagine that's what the OP had in mind, rather than this. I think since I am not accustomed to your militant style of posting, I find it really jarring actually. Are you aware of how you come across? Or is it deliberate?

Discuss all you want, please hold the snark, thanks.

And I'm glad that Nasat knows you are posting in his thread because you care, as it did not seem immediately obvious earlier...

 

[thestrangequark]

TSQ, although you may very well be right... absolutes bother me a little... our knowledge is ever growing, and what may be considered preposterous today, may be in the school textbooks tomorrow... here's an example I love: In the late 1700's, the French Academy of Sciences looked into the matter, and proceeded to declare that stones could not fall from the sky, because there were no stones in the sky. And that was the end of the matter for some time. Nevermind that people had actually seen them fall with their own eyes. Now, meteorites are undisputed. The rational inquiry, although extremely logical and useful, I think can become self defeating when it falls into arrogance. We do not know everything, currently.

Absolutes bother me too, but that documentary was basing its whole premis in an absolute and definite statement: the heart is more than just a pump. I thought the self-delusion of the host so obvious that it was sad and painful to watch; he went in with a conclusion and then tried to make the evidence support it, when it didn't. The scientist would do a demonstration and the host would enthusiastically say, "So what you're saying is this!" Then the scientist would say, "Well...kind of..." and then we'd cut to the host saying, "Clearly, the science shows...!"
In this case, the reasoning is deeply flawed. Aspects of his hypothesis I think are really valid and important to discuss. He talks about the false dichotomy that separates mind and body, and that is a very real false dichotomy with a lot of serious implications. The implications apply strongly to this very thread, and are likely much of the reason for the shame that Nesat is feeling. I know it was for me. When it is deeply ingrained in your culture that the mind is different from the body, and that sickness of the mind is your fault rather than the fault of a germ, it's hard not to feel ashamed, even when you know it's not true.
Anyway, the documentary's entire argument for the heart being not simply a pump is based in the idea that it is too beautiful to be a pump. It's the same as looking at a bunch of children's finger paintings and then being presented with the Mona Lisa and saying, "Clearly this isn't a painting, it is too beautiful to be a painting!" He tries to make the science support this idea, specifically in the segment discussing DeVinci, where they show that DeVinci, using a glass model, discovered the suction action of the heart. The host then lays a picture of DaVinci's diagrams side by side with diagrams of 19th century machinery and says that they are clearly not the same thing -- he seemed to think he'd demonstrated that the heart wasn't a pump, when really all he'd shown was that it is a beautiful, sophisticated, and complex pump that utilizes suction. Every single conclusion he drew was a non sequitur.
The documentary then proceeded to make a big deal of the neuronal network of the heart, and that's as it should be. The fact that the heart has an independent network of neurons is really fascinating, and shows that the relationship between the heart and brain is more complex than previously thought. But that neuronal network helps to control the heartbeat, there is no evidence, or real plausibility of mechanism for how it could generate emotions or thought. Yes, the heart has a neuronal network, but so does the digestive tract.

Finally, there was the really offensive line about how people who employ reason are "cold" and "mechanical as the machines" they were comparing to human body function.

I know the host was genuine, when he spoke of his wife I really felt for him, but none of what he was saying actually makes any sense.

 

[thestrangequark]

For how much I trust the sentiment is real and the offer is honest, I don't think Nasat (or anybody else) would get any help from something that isn't based of a truthful assessment of reality.

This is exactly what I think. While this specific documentary isn't as guilty of the kind of predatory action you cited -- it's really way too naive for that -- I do think the last thing people need in times of struggle is dishonesty. This documentary was a lovely fantasy, presented by a completely credulous host, but a beautiful lie is still a lie, even if the liar believes it.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, the heart has a neuronal network, but so does the digestive tract.

I have a gut feeling you're right.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I speak of your use of terms like "bullshit"! Really? This is discussion for you? Okay, our opinions on this differ! I think you are verging on trolling when you use profanities rather than straightforward non offensive discussion. And "prey on people"? I'm preying on the OP now? I see.

I was actually speaking of the documentary, not yourself. I hate to see people abuse their duty to inform to spread unsubstantiated claims as if they were proven truths. That's what I was referring to. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I really do not think your approach is particularly respectful to myself or the original poster, considering the problems mentioned.

I'm not aware of any disrespect in my words. Respect is also being able to disagree. Otherwise it's just hollow appeasement.

Hardly a calming, helpful, friendly atmosphere you are helping to create... I would imagine that's what the OP had in mind, rather than this.

I dunno. Maybe you should ask him, instead of policing his thread making sure that everybody behaves as you intend them to.

I think since I am not accustomed to your militant style of posting, I find it really jarring actually. Are you aware of how you come across? Or is it deliberate?

I am what I am. Someone has to be.

And I'm glad that Nasat knows you are posting in his thread because you care, as it did not seem immediately obvious earlier...

I'm glad of it as well.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Sorry for the double post: the previous one was long enough even without this addendum.

In this case, the reasoning is deeply flawed. Aspects of his hypothesis I think are really valid and important to discuss. He talks about the false dichotomy that separates mind and body, and that is a very real false dichotomy with a lot of serious implications. The implications apply strongly to this very thread, and are likely much of the reason for the shame that Nesat is feeling. I know it was for me. When it is deeply ingrained in your culture that the mind is different from the body, and that sickness of the mind is your fault rather than the fault of a germ, it's hard not to feel ashamed, even when you know it's not true.

I attended a seminar this week exactly about this false dichotomy. The lecturer talked a great deal about the idea that the "mind" is something different from the "body", while all scientific evidences point to the fact that the mind is actually a product of the brain, i.e. the mind is what the brain does. He then discussed the various aspects of the "soul" in the various cultures, from the ancient Greeks' pneuma to Jung's collective unconscious. It was really an interesting discussion.

 

[RAMA]

Finally, there was the really offensive line about how people who employ reason are "cold" and "mechanical as the machines" they were comparing to human body function.

I know the host was genuine, when he spoke of his wife I really felt for him, but none of what he was saying actually makes any sense.

I had to add to this...it's ironic that in cases of pseudoscience the claimants tend to denounce science and anyone with rational criticism, but then they try to use the scientific method to prove they are right. In some cases (as with homeopathy) the supporters claim that science simply isn't capable of proving efficacy, that other forces are at work. Then often they go on to list studies where it has worked. Sorry, they can't have it both ways...

As for the OP, sorry to hear of your problems, I really have no inkling of what you must be going through...no frame of reference. Hopefully some of the fine, upstanding members of this BB that have been stepping up can share their experiences and help you. Good luck!

 

[An Officer]

TSQ, I agree with a lot of what you say actually, there is no hard conclusive evidence, in that documentary at least... there are suggestions though... the fact that certain impulses that were believed only to come from the brain were demonstrated to come from the heart, that there was an actual override of the brain at times! The question is, just what else exactly can it override? This is still unknown, maybe it has other surprising overrides, maybe it does not.

As to describing reason as cold and mechanical... I'm not sure... I read it as he did not like the industrial revolution itself, rather than he felt all that comes from reason to be crude and cold... myself, I do not think it has to be one or the other, both can be utilized at appropriate times in appropriate ways. I don't think it has to be either or... and a sense of beauty, wonder, and awe is a beautiful thing... and many of the greatest discoveries began with a unsubstantiated belief, after which the evidence was sought and produced. There is room for some sort of intuition or whatever you want to call it, I think.

The evidence in the documentary is not strong, but neither is it non existent. I find it something interesting to contemplate, whether it is fact or not. That's like saying to me do not bring up what the systems of the exoplanets that are being discovered look like, because you do not have proof... sometimes, these things are satisfying and useful by themselves, whether the proof arrives or not. And as long as it is not being taught in schools or published in serious publications, I think an informal discussion like this can just about take it.

And I wish I could remember where I saw read about the heart possibly having a capacity to learn/reason/feel, quite separately from the brain... I have come across more specific and direct discussion of it at some point... and to be honest, I simply enjoy mulling these notions in my mind and do not particularly care whether it appears in a peer reviewed journal or not, I find it enriching simply to contemplate for a while, and then move on... I am not staking my livelihood on it or anything.

I do think it is very interesting that certain ideas are really not in vogue today, but they were yesterday, and may be again. Nothing is fixed, and it is the idea of a fixed one system way of looking at the world that makes me chafe a bit, smacks of intellectual fascism... because I wonder, what else is there? Is that really all there is? There should be room for that question without ridicule or suspicion of mental deficiency!

 

[thestrangequark]

Sorry for the double post: the previous one was long enough even without this addendum.

In this case, the reasoning is deeply flawed. Aspects of his hypothesis I think are really valid and important to discuss. He talks about the false dichotomy that separates mind and body, and that is a very real false dichotomy with a lot of serious implications. The implications apply strongly to this very thread, and are likely much of the reason for the shame that Nesat is feeling. I know it was for me. When it is deeply ingrained in your culture that the mind is different from the body, and that sickness of the mind is your fault rather than the fault of a germ, it's hard not to feel ashamed, even when you know it's not true.

I attended a seminar this week exactly about this false dichotomy. The lecturer talked a great deal about the idea that the "mind" is something different from the "body", while all scientific evidences point to the fact that the mind is actually a product of the brain, i.e. the mind is what the brain does. He then discussed the various aspects of the "soul" in the various cultures, from the ancient Greeks' pneuma to Jung's collective unconscious. It was really an interesting discussion.

I don't know -- I find the ideas interesting in the same way that I find alchemy or the humors theory of disease interesting; I've heard a few talks by dualists and idealists, but I've never seen any evidence or reasoning that even began to be convincing.

Officer, I think that there was actually a ton of good scientific evidence in that documentary, it's just that none of it supported the hypothesis of the host. Like I said, his reasoning was non sequitur. He did the same sort of thing that pseudoscientists and post-modernist philosophers do when they claim that quantum theory implies that we control our reality: he cited real science, but with no understanding of what the science actually means or implies. (This was the flawed premis of What the Bleep Do We Know?)

The science that was demonstrated in the heart documentary was all legitimate, and some of it was cutting-edge, though not as much a revelation or as game-changing as the host seemed to think. Depending on how you define reason and learn there is evidence that the neuronal network of the heart does that, but in a very simplified way that is nothing like the sort of reasoning and learning (and emoting) our actual brains do. The documentarian expressed such respect for the Ancient Egyptians' understanding of the heart, while seemingly forgetting that the Ancient Egyptians discarded the brain as an unimportant body-cooling system. The neuronal network of the heart is definitely fascinating and interesting to contemplate, as you say, in the same way that the neuronal network of the gut is -- but it is interesting and fascinating of it's own right, there's no need to imbue it with other attributes. What is the exact nature of the interaction between neurons in the heart, the gut, and the brain? To what extent to these interactions affect our thoughts and emotions? Note that is is affect, not cause, because if they did cause emotions, learning, and thoughts in the way the host suggests, there would be evidence of that, and there's none. These are all fascinating and legitimate questions!

If we go by number and complexity of arrangement of neurons alone, the bowels have a much greater affect on our thoughts and feelings than our hearts, but something tells me that this host won't be making a documentary about the emotions of the lower intestine. For one thing it would be a pain to find so many poetic quotations about the beautiful attributes of gastrointestinal system! A leader in the research of neurology of the bowels, in fact dubbed the gut "The Second Brain." Like the "little brain" of the heart, though, it's somewhat of a misnomer.

As to your last point, yes, indeed we must question everything! That is what science is all about. But there is a difference between questioning with the intent of learning and questioning for the sake of questioning. One is about letting nature lead you to conclusions, the other is about making conclusions and trying to bend nature into supporting them. That is the difference between scientific and pseudoscientific reasoning.

 

[propita]

Holy cow, dude! I read some of me in your posts. Yes, I understand what you're saying and identify with a lot of it.

You have GOT to understand, it is most likely that the underlying problem is physiological, not psychological (NOT YOUR FAULT!), mental, or emotional. While it likely started physiologically, everything that has happened to you in your life has added emotionally and psychologically to it. Still NOT YOUR FAULT! The fact that you have been trying to "fix" this speaks volumes of how you have worth and value, even if you are currently unable to believe it.

Most people can't understand the difference between understanding a concept intellectually, yet being completely unable to apply it to yourself. That's a hint that it's physiological. And it is sooo frustrating! And that frustration just adds to all the rest, multiplying the problem. Still NOT YOUR FAULT!

And, yes, it's embarrassing! To feel out of control when others seem to be having no problems. To attract attention that you don't want and people think you're being an attention-seeker, when all you want to do is be invisible and stay away from everyone. To be accused of being a perfectionist (cause its not being said as a compliment), when all you feel is that you'll never be good.

I thought for decades that I was worthless and insufficient. I hated myself, and the only reason I didn't kill myself was because I knew it would cause my parents pain. I cared more about their pain than I did my own life. So all I could do was hope for death while at the same time taking no actions which could make my parents think that I had killed myself. Because I hated myself but couldn't escape myself, I avoided others--why impose my worthless self into what I imagined was their "idyllic" lives? Yeah, pretty twisted.

I was finally advised to see a shrink in 2006 at age 43. That was when I was told it wasn't my fault, that it was physiological (dysthymia). And yet, my decades of trying to "fix" me meant that I didn't get as bad as I might've, and actually helped as I got a bit better (2 years on anti-depressants).

God! My heart hurts with feeling the pain you describe. It's so familiar, it's scary. If you ever want to PM me, feel free. You don't have to have faith in yourself for others to have faith in you. Just keep going. My friend (I did have friends, though I didn't recognize it at the time) literally wrote on my palms "focus" and "breathe." I had to use the "breathe" one more.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I attended a seminar this week exactly about this false dichotomy. The lecturer talked a great deal about the idea that the "mind" is something different from the "body", while all scientific evidences point to the fact that the mind is actually a product of the brain, i.e. the mind is what the brain does. He then discussed the various aspects of the "soul" in the various cultures, from the ancient Greeks' pneuma to Jung's collective unconscious. It was really an interesting discussion.

I don't know -- I find the ideas interesting in the same way that I find alchemy or the humors theory of disease interesting; I've heard a few talks by dualists and idealists, but I've never seen any evidence or reasoning that even began to be convincing.

Yes, and that was the point of the lecture: taking the ideas of philosophers and religions, and compare them with actual scientific content. The main lecturer was a neuroscientist, but there was also a biologist and a sociologist.

 

[thestrangequark]

^Oh, I got it. At first I thought he was lecturing against the materialist perspective -- I didn't read your post carefully enough!

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Thank you, propita. A lot of that is sadly familiar. I'm thankful that you shared that, and I appreciate your support. The same goes for everyone who posted here - I really should spend less time worrying about things and more time appreciating you all.

The good news is, I've gotten a response from the local mental health clinic following my initial assessment some weeks ago. I'm seeing two specialists on Monday (29th), and the fact that they've called together two people from different fields gives me hope that this will kick off a serious investigation into what's wrong with me, and hopefully lead to effective management/treatment. So I'll post details in the aftermath.

 

[Mr Awe]

I suppose this is a mix between an open request for advice and a forum for discussion, but I could really use your collective help, my friends.

As much as I'm sure we'd love to help you, there's simply no way that any could help with a problem like this over a BBS. A good friend would be hard pressed to help even in person. That's not to say that you shouldn't make all efforts to maintain good relationships with those close to you. You should.

However, for a persistant and damaging problem like this, you really need to seek professional help. I can't overstate the importance of that.

ETA: Just read that you've sought help, that is great!

Mr Awe

 

[thestrangequark]

Thank you, propita. A lot of that is sadly familiar. I'm thankful that you shared that, and I appreciate your support. The same goes for everyone who posted here - I really should spend less time worrying about things and more time appreciating you all.

The good news is, I've gotten a response from the local mental health clinic following my initial assessment some weeks ago. I'm seeing two specialists on Monday (29th), and the fact that they've called together two people from different fields gives me hope that this will kick off a serious investigation into what's wrong with me, and hopefully lead to effective management/treatment. So I'll post details in the aftermath.

Best of luck, Nesat! Just keep listening to that rational side, try your best to maintain a sense of humor, and remember, it really can get better.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I had the next assessment today, and I'll be having another "soon" (or so I'm promised). I'm rather frustrated, though, because at the moment it's a case of the doctors coming to their own conclusions regarding what's wrong and where I'll need to be referred next, and in my impatience I want help - as in treatment - immediately. I know this is the road to that eventual destination, and I know that they can't just accept any self-diagnosis on my part, but it's all so slow it's hard to believe I'm getting anywhere.

I may not know for sure what's wrong with me medically, but I know what the problem is in terms of my subjective experience, and I know in the abstract what needs to be achieved to make me well. Of course, the problem is that I don't know how to achieve it; for that I'll need assistance, and I can't get that assistance until the doctors find their way to a conclusion regarding what they've observed/learnt.

It's as if I know that what I need is moonrock, so I'm standing there saying "take me to the moon ASAP", anxious to get there so I can get my rock. But they're still deciding whether they agree that what I need is moonrock, and even if they conclude that it is, there's then the question of how we're going to get to the moon, whether we can get there easily and what precautions and planning have to be undertaken before we can safely go. And intellectually, of course, I understand the importance of this, but it doesn't make it any easier for me.

Moon. Now. *Stamps foot*.

 

[thestrangequark]

If it's any consolation, no matter how powerless you feel, you always have power. I think a lot of people dismiss their doctors' opinions, and it's really affirming that you're taking your doctors seriously.

For me, learning about my health problems has always been very empowering (though it can be frightening and overwhelming at times, but ultimately helpful. I was careful where I did my research -- there's a lot of New Age nonsense and dangerous pseudoscience out there when it comes to health and mental health -- I think researching my health problems myself really allowed me to work with my doctors and make truly informed decisions about my care.

I don't know if you're at that point yet...maybe what you need right now is a good escapist movie or a fantasy novel and a box of truffles! But we're all here ready to listen to whatever you need to say.


...at least until the electricity goes out!

 

[RJDiogenes]

Sorry for the late reply. I just noticed this thread now, and I haven't read the whole thing. I will tell you three things:

1) You know this, but I will affirm it for you: You have worth and have nothing to be ashamed of. You're intelligent, educated, talented and a real nice guy. The very fact that you expend so much worry on being a problem to others proves your value as a Human being. You're not a problem.

2) You're lucky to have a family that doesn't try to shame you or use your problems to manipulate you. My family always tried to make me ashamed of being intelligent and talented.

3) A suggestion: Read biographies of great and talented people. You'll be amazed at how many of them suffered from conditions like depression or anxiety or Asperger's or bipolar disorder or something, or were merely eccentric beyond belief (I'm one of the latter, but there are no biographies as yet ). It's great to deal with physical and emotional issues and you should continue to do so, but you've also got to learn to love yourself and fly that freak flag high.