Sexy or Creepy?

[Mr Awe]

People have jumped into bed after less, luv'. I wouldn't say it was creepy. Personally i rather think it was romantic. A kiss on a bridge is a classic.

I will however say that the bloke needs to learn to keep his hands for himself. That was rather presumptuous of him. Call me old fashioned, but you don't go copping a feel after knowing someone for five minutes. Then again, I don't do one night stands either. I suppose its a matter of opinion.

When something is mutually agreed upon by adults, hey, that's totally fine. She gave no indication that she had invited more than a kiss. It's a huge difference. The guy is a creep. He got a girl to agree to one smaller thing and then used that to get a lot more that she wasn't expecting. Anytime a guy (or girl) has to use lying to get what *he* wants, that's the very definition of a creep.

Now, she might be OK with it to some extent afterwards, but that doesn't make what *he* did acceptable. Even if TSQ is alright with it, most people would feel violated. This creep has been validated and is now even more likely to try it again.

Mr Awe

 

[doubleohfive]

Man, what a black and white world we live in. Is there no room for color? For the bleeding of improvisation anymore? Why must it be absolutely one thing or the other?

 

[Kestra]

Man, what a black and white world we live in. Is there no room for color? For the bleeding of improvisation anymore? Why must it be absolutely one thing or the other?

Because only two choices were given.

 

[RoJoHen]

Maybe he's a creep. Maybe he just got carried away. We don't know enough about him to know his true intentions.

I mean, what should he have done? Stopped the kiss and asked, "May I grab your boob?"

 

[doubleohfive]

Man, what a black and white world we live in. Is there no room for color? For the bleeding of improvisation anymore? Why must it be absolutely one thing or the other?

Because only two choices were given.

Does that necessarily mean that only two answers are possible?

 

[Mr Awe]

As for the boob thing, as it seems to be a point of contention... to those who said the kiss was okay but the copping a feel was too far, how is it that sticking his tongue in my mouth is fine but putting his hand on my breast (over a winter sweater and wool coat, nonetheless!) during a passionate kiss is going too far? What sort of logic is that? It's not as if he stuck his hand down my bra! My goodness!

I'm glad you ended up enjoying the encounter. But, I still stand by my point that what HE did was wrong. He lied and did manipulate you. He got you to agree to one lesser thing and then took advantage of that for more. If he has to lie to get what he wanted, that IS creepy.

By the way, I did say that both the Frenching and groping was wrong.

You did nothing wrong. I'm judging his actions, at least as presented by your original post which contained many negatives about the encounter. It's within your rights, obviously, to enjoy what transpired. That doesn't make what he did acceptable. Many would feel violated.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Man, what a black and white world we live in. Is there no room for color? For the bleeding of improvisation anymore? Why must it be absolutely one thing or the other?

Ah, there's plenty of room for grey. I mean, what he did was creepy but she's certainly entitled to enjoy it.

Mr Awe

 

[cultcross]

One thing I find encouraging (and amusing) is that almost all of the women in this thread come down on the side of "Sexy," and all of the objections from the males are based on paternalism and political correctness. That says a lot about the current state of the culture.

How did 'political correctness' feature on either side in this debate?

 

[An Officer]

I didn't want to say this, because of a weird sort of female solidarity instinct, but something really doesn't sit right with me at all, so I'll just say it. Women who politely say "no", are railroaded into intimacy anyway, and who then afterwards decide they liked it, are what confuse men.

One woman says "no", gets groped, and decides she liked it and it was romantic. Another woman says "no", gets groped, is traumatised, and reports it to the police (I think she would have a good case a crime had occurred). How is a man supposed to know for sure? He ought to exercise restraint of course, but I can see why it could potentially be a difficult thing to gauge for some.

Women who do this sort of thing are doing a disservice to the rest who really mean "no" when they say "no", and say "yes" when they mean "yes". Of course, the onus is not on you to correct the behaviour of others, but a little clarity and common sense goes a long way, I think.

Some honesty would prevent a lot of incidents. If you want a man who is a perfect stranger, have the guts/decisiveness to say "yes" to him. Don't say "no", then by your actions reinforce the idea that it is okay to impose intimacy after being given a "no".

Unfortunately, real life is not always Gone with the Wind, when a kiss can follow a slap, and unfortunately, not all men are Rhett Butler. Some men are unsure, or a little young, or just not really great at reading people, and conflicting signals like these can really confuse and mislead.

I am not excusing men who misread signals or are out to do serious harm, I'm just saying, let's not set up other women with difficult situations. The Frenchman may go away now thinking if even half the women he approaches in the same manner have a positive reaction to being jumped, then it is worth his while to continue such behaviour.

If the world were like a Hollywood romance, I would want to enjoy being romantic and carefree whenever possible, even with complete strangers, but in the interests of personal safety and the safety of others, I think it's unwise. The OP was lucky, in that he didn't turn out to be a complete psycho, but she wasn't to know that after 5 minutes, I dare say many serial killers and rapists in history have been known to be handsome and charming. I'm sure many young women have gone into vans quite relaxed, and perhaps even laughing.

 

[Mr Awe]

^^ Certainly he came away validated from the experience, that much is clear.

 

[Shaytan]

Women who do this sort of thing are doing a disservice to the rest who really mean "no" when they say "no", and say "yes" when they mean "yes". Of course, the onus is not on you to correct the behaviour of others, but a little clarity and common sense goes a long way, I think.

And what if the woman think no at first and then yes, and then maybe no, and then I should try and then maybe I will regret it and then "I only have one life, I will never know if I don't try" and then not but yes and then maybe yes maybe no... ?
I'd like to simple sometimes

Oh, and for general information, when an unknown Frenchman asks a woman to walk with her he wants something else than just walking. ALWAYS !

 

[Kelthaz]

People have different standards on what is appropriate behaviour and what isn't acceptable. From Quark's story it sounds like his intentions were to be romantic and sweep her off her feet. And, well, it sounds like it worked pretty well. I don't think it was creepy at all.

He pressured her for one thing (a kiss) and took advantage of that acceptance to go beyond what was agreed and violate commonly accepted personal boundaries (groping). That is creepy. If he stuck to the agreed upon kiss, there's no problem. It's very straightforward.

Mr Awe

Commonly accepted personal boundaries? Agreed upon kiss? We're not talking about a contract here. We're talking about a guy who was smitten with a girl and made a spur of the moment romantic move. Could his kiss/grope have creepy intentions behind it? Sure, but you can't possibly determine that from this one action.

 

[Misfit Toy]

I didn't want to say this, because of a weird sort of female solidarity instinct, but something really doesn't sit right with me at all, so I'll just say it. Women who politely say "no", are railroaded into intimacy anyway, and who then afterwards decide they liked it, are what confuse men.

To be fair, I don't think that tsq is trying to be a role model for womenkind, here. She told us what happened and asked our opinion, that's all.

 

[RoJoHen]

To be fair, I don't think that tsq is trying to be a role model for womenkind, here.

Just imagine how sexy/creepy the world would be if she was!

 

[cultcross]

Commonly accepted personal boundaries? Agreed upon kiss? We're not talking about a contract here. We're talking about a guy who was smitten with a girl and made a spur of the moment romantic move. Could his kiss/grope have creepy intentions behind it? Sure, but you can't possibly determine that from this one action.

I think the point was that many would interpret that action alone as creepy, regardless of the intention behind it. And in a sense, we are talking about a contract, albeit a social construct of one. But we do talk in contractual terms when we discuss personal contact - consent is the linchpin of most sexual offences and is a defence to assault. It is clear that in this case, tsq consents, at least after the fact, to what happened, so there is no issue. However, in the exact same situation, someone else could have reacted very differently, and they had not given consent for the man's actions. You could hardly argue that social norms would give implied consent in such a circumstance - the very fact we're on the 16th page of discussing it shows how unusual it was.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Yes, exactly. Sometimes, you just gotta ignite the light and let it shine, just own the night like the 4th of July. Cuz, baby, you're a firework!

Edit: Reply to Kelthaz.

 

[An Officer]

To be fair, I don't think that tsq is trying to be a role model for womenkind, here. She told us what happened and asked our opinion, that's all.

That much is clear. I could join the chorus of "well, as long as you're happy", but gave the OP a genuine well thought out opinion, which as you say, the OP asked for, and I gave, that's all. If you, the OP, or others don't like my opinion, you're perfectly entitled, and a healthy debate is very welcome.

 

[Mr Awe]

People have different standards on what is appropriate behaviour and what isn't acceptable. From Quark's story it sounds like his intentions were to be romantic and sweep her off her feet. And, well, it sounds like it worked pretty well. I don't think it was creepy at all.

He pressured her for one thing (a kiss) and took advantage of that acceptance to go beyond what was agreed and violate commonly accepted personal boundaries (groping). That is creepy. If he stuck to the agreed upon kiss, there's no problem. It's very straightforward.

Mr Awe

Commonly accepted personal boundaries? Agreed upon kiss? We're not talking about a contract here. We're talking about a guy who was smitten with a girl and made a spur of the moment romantic move. Could his kiss/grope have creepy intentions behind it? Sure, but you can't possibly determine that from this one action.

The fact that she agreed to "bisou bisou", little kiss. But, instead got a tongue in her mouth and a hand on her breast. That makes it creepy. As I said, he got her to agree to something little and then used that to get more. Typical high pressure sales technique, BTW. So, yes, you can very well determine creepiness.

No, there isn't a contract, well maybe a social one. It's called respecting boundaries.

Mr Awe

 

[RJDiogenes]

One thing I find encouraging (and amusing) is that almost all of the women in this thread come down on the side of "Sexy," and all of the objections from the males are based on paternalism and political correctness. That says a lot about the current state of the culture.

What political correctness?

The kind that turns wolf whistles into harrassment and gets people fired from their jobs for giving a compliment. The kind that turns the incident in question here into molestation, abuse and something that should involve the police.

One thing I find encouraging (and amusing) is that almost all of the women in this thread come down on the side of "Sexy," and all of the objections from the males are based on paternalism and political correctness. That says a lot about the current state of the culture.

Let's not ignore the 'insecure, perpetually single nerd' quotient either, the percentage of which I'm sure is rather high among our hallowed membership here.

Aha! That would explain all the "I Don't Understand Girls" threads.

I mean, what should he have done? Stopped the kiss and asked, "May I grab your boob?"

Well, I always say "please" and "thank you." But I'm not French.

One thing I find encouraging (and amusing) is that almost all of the women in this thread come down on the side of "Sexy," and all of the objections from the males are based on paternalism and political correctness. That says a lot about the current state of the culture.

How did 'political correctness' feature on either side in this debate?

See above. It's all interwoven in a culture that believes that life is something to be feared rather than lived.

 

[Kelthaz]

Yes, exactly. Sometimes, you just gotta ignite the light and let it shine, just own the night like the 4th of July. Cuz, baby, you're a firework!

And sometimes that means you'll take it too far or make the wrong call, but that's just part of life. If TSQ had resisted would this man have backed off and apologized, or pushed harder? Get me the answer to that and I'll tell you if he was creepy or not.