Well, the shape of the Neutral Zone on that map is constrained by what was shown in "Balance of Terror," which showed the NZ fairly close to Romulus. I always felt the intent of BoT was that the territory contained by the NZ was fairly small.
Several Questions Regarding "Paths of Disharmony"
- Thread starter Gatekeeper
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Running contrary to the later identification of the Romulans as one of the three local superpowers?
Anyhow, I can think of explanations. Who's to say that the Romulans expanded from their home system in a perfectly spherical shell? If concentrations of habitable worlds, conquerable civilizations, and other attention-attracting items were concentrated in one particular direction and sparse in another, especially with sublight ships but also with low-warp vehicles there'd be incentives to head in particular reactions. Maybe the Romulans had only very recently settled that part of their hinterland?
the original intent was that the Romulans were resttricted to their home system. that didn't come through in the final episode.
Which final episode? Or are you talking about the episode where they debuted?
I think he means the final cut of Balance of Terror.
correct
Defiantly? Who are you defying?
I've been reading Trek for about 40 years now. There have been a lot of ups and downs, and Typhon Pact isn't one of them. In other words, it's a mix of some good stuff, some great stuff, some not so good stuff.
As I said in another thread, I guarantee you the Typhon Pact will not endure. The Typhon Pact will collapse on itself like the poorly built structure it is. You can't expect all these formerly insular species to work together and build an institution half as good as the Federation, not when the Federation itself is apparently going to seed in these very same book. Frankly I am fed up with any treklit written after that overwrought Destiny Trilogy mess. Mark my words, the Typhon Pact will be dead by the end of the series. The Typhon Pact has more in common with the Legion of Doom than any legitimate organization like the Federation, or even the Dominion.
I bet a lot of observers said that about the Federation in 2163. Or about the United States in 1780 or so. The Pact is less than two years old -- it's a bit hasty to be writing the post-mortem when it's still going through teething pains. History is written on the scale of decades and centuries.
Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites were quite insular, and hated each other's guts, until Jonathan Archer encouraged them to work together.
The end of what series? If you mean the Typhon Pact miniseries, I can assure you the Pact is still intact as of the end of The Struggle Within, which is the last installment in that series to date. And they aren't specific to any other single series within Trek Lit -- most of whose series are open-ended.
Mind you, I'm sure they said the same thing about the Soviet Union and guess what...THEY WERE RIGHT! People thought the Soviet Union would last into the 24th century when it didn't even make it to the 21st.
Let's not forget the League of Nations either, it collapsed with a little push we call World War II.
And then the Andorians decide to take up their marbles and run home with their tails between their legs. And in another book, the Vulcans flirt with secession. You are not helping your case. When even the Federation is having trouble staying together, what chances does that hackneyed, ramshackle excuse for an alliance the Typhon Pact have?
So the Typhon Pact may survive the end of the miniseries (unless The Struggle Within was the absolute last installment, the jurry is still out on that one), I am positive the Typhon Pact will not live to see the 25th century. The Typhon Pact was founded by thieves and one-shot villains from old episodes of TOS. Yeah, I can definitely see a bright future for them.
^Of course the Pact's survival isn't guaranteed, but my point is that its failure isn't guaranteed either. It could go either way. That's the whole thing that's interesting about the Pact -- the fact that anything could happen. It could be, yes, that its internal tensions will tear it apart. But it could also be that its members will benefit from their cooperation, that they'll come to understand the value of cooperation, and that the more selfish and aggressive factions within its members will be marginalized in favor of factions that pursue a stronger, more peaceful coalition.
And considering that the five core members of the Federation remained united for 221 years before one of them left, and that it gained well over a hundred additional members in that time, it's rather silly to claim that it's an intrinsically unstable civilization. So the Federation lost one member and another one maybe considered leaving (in one version of the continuity). So what? There was that time when nearly a third of the states within the United States of America seceded and formed their own separate government that went to war with the Union. That's a lot worse than any internal strife the Federation's ever suffered, but America's still here a century and a half later, bigger and more united than it was then.
So it's ridiculously premature to look at a little strife and assume the Federation -- or the Pact -- is doomed. Just because a risk exists doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen. Star Trek is about optimism, remember? It's about believing that positive outcomes can happen and doing the hard work to make them happen. It's not about whining about gloom and doom and letting it become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you're too cynical or too lazy to fight for a better future.
And considering that the five core members of the Federation remained united for 221 years before one of them left, and that it gained well over a hundred additional members in that time, it's rather silly to claim that it's an intrinsically unstable civilization. So the Federation lost one member and another one maybe considered leaving (in one version of the continuity). So what? There was that time when nearly a third of the states within the United States of America seceded and formed their own separate government that went to war with the Union. That's a lot worse than any internal strife the Federation's ever suffered, but America's still here a century and a half later, bigger and more united than it was then.
So it's ridiculously premature to look at a little strife and assume the Federation -- or the Pact -- is doomed. Just because a risk exists doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen. Star Trek is about optimism, remember? It's about believing that positive outcomes can happen and doing the hard work to make them happen. It's not about whining about gloom and doom and letting it become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you're too cynical or too lazy to fight for a better future.
I'd be more inclined to believe you if TrekLit wasn't all doom and gloom for the past decade! First it's the Dominion War, then the Borg are acting up again and hell bent at exterminating all life in the Alpha Quadrant (WHAT!) that only a deus ex machina was able to stop, then a group of nations that have been hostile to the Federation or the Klingons have banded together, then a potential ally to the Federation has been dissolved, now we have one of the founding members of the Federation seceding, it's just one big train wreck waiting to happen. While the expanded universe couldn't do anything about the Dominion War, it is responsible for everything else.
Tell you what, I'm certain the main TrekLit has become so stale and repetitive that I know the Typhon Pact will end in either of four ways:
- The Romulans will seek to control the entire Typhon Pact like an expanded version of their empire. One member state, possibly the Tzenkethi, will chafe at Romulan dominance and attempt to break away from the Pact. The Romulans will of course use force against the Tzenkethi to keep them in line. The other nations will be alarmed and also try to seceed. Next thing you know, the Typhon Pact collapses into a civil war from which it will never recover.
- Same as the above but with the Tzenkethi and Romulan positions reversed.
- The writers are setting things up for some big overwrought War(!) Arc that will pit the Federation Alliance against the Typhon Pact. The Typhon Pact will lose and be forcibly broken up. The decision to break up the Typhon Pact will of course lead to another of the Federation's founder states, let's say the Vulcans this time, to secede and the Federation will collapse into civil war. And they'll probably kill off Picard at the end because TPTB apparently have a grudge against the Federation.
- All of the above.
The Star Trek Expanded Universe is wearing itself ragged. If it keeps on the way it's going it'll end up like the Star Wars expanded universe, one pointless conflict after another continuing long after anyone has lost all interest.
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Bear in mind that the more forcefully you push for this "inevitable" conclusion, the more likely the people who are actually doing the writing will do the exact opposite just to spite you.So the Typhon Pact may survive the end of the miniseries (unless The Struggle Within was the absolute last installment, the jurry is still out on that one), I am positive the Typhon Pact will not live to see the 25th century. The Typhon Pact was founded by thieves and one-shot villains from old episodes of TOS. Yeah, I can definitely see a bright future for them.
Although that's crediting you with far more influence in this equation than you actually have.
No matter what you assume "has to" happen, the writers/editors involved in creating the stories will make those stories go in the directions they feel are the most interesting, regardless of what you consider "inevitable." You're not in any position to "guarantee" anything, because you're not writing the damn things.
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Bear in mind that the more forcefully you push for this "inevitable" conclusion, the more likely the people who are actually doing the writing will do the exact opposite just to spite you.So the Typhon Pact may survive the end of the miniseries (unless The Struggle Within was the absolute last installment, the jurry is still out on that one), I am positive the Typhon Pact will not live to see the 25th century. The Typhon Pact was founded by thieves and one-shot villains from old episodes of TOS. Yeah, I can definitely see a bright future for them.
Although that's crediting you with far more influence in this equation than you actually have.
No matter what you assume "has to" happen, the writers/editors involved in creating the stories will make those stories go in the directions they feel are the most interesting, regardless of what you consider "inevitable." You're not in any position to "guarantee" anything, because you're not writing the damn things.
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I'll admit I play rather fast and loose with hyperbole, but that doesn't take away from the fact that what I said sounds an awful lot like the way TPTB are thinking. I also seriously doubt the writers will go out of their way to spite little old me. I'm just predicting what actions TPTB will take. It's just that they have become so monotonous that I can make these predictions with nearly 100% accuracy. If they don't go as predicted, fine, at least I won't have to endure another Destiny Trilogy. If they go exactly as I have predicted, I was right and I can take comfort in that. Either way, I will be a happy man.
I certainly don't agree with that. If Pocket's novel line were "all gloom and doom," I wouldn't want to write for it, because that's just not what I do. A lot of books have been published in the past decade, and while many of them have involved major crises, there's been quite a lot of optimism in them as well. Destiny is, in fact, a very optimistic story. Yes, for a while it looks like the end is nigh, but even in the face of the worst threat humanity has ever faced, decency and compassion triumph and save the day. And then you have Losing the Peace, which is about the Federation successfully reaffirming its core values in the wake of tragedy; Over a Torrent Sea, which I consciously wrote to be an upbeat change of pace and a story about growth and recovery; and Children of the Storm, which is one of the best affirmations of the Federation's optimistic values that I've read in years. And Rough Beasts of Empire was kind of optimistic too; sure, some bad stuff happens in it, but it ends up with the Romulan Empire under the most benevolent leadership we've ever known it to have.
But the Dominion War was ended by Odo's act of compassion, and the Dominion has since ceased to be a threat. And the Borg were rescued and redeemed by the Caeliar's compassion, thereby permanently ending their threat to the rest of the galaxy. I'd call that a very optimistic outcome. (And it's completely wrong to call that a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution that comes out of nowhere at the last minute, with no prior setup or justification within the story. The Caeliar were central to the entire Destiny trilogy and their connection to the Borg was hinted at throughout.)
Plus the Gorn, who have historically had good or neutral relations with the Federation and whose current regime owes its continued existence to Picard and Data. I'm amazed how often people forget that in their haste to caricature the Pact as black-hat villains.
Or it's a set of challenges for our heroes to face and overcome. Optimistic stories aren't ones where nothing bad ever happens. Optimistic stories are ones that show it's possible to face even the most terrible challenges and crises and still find a way to succeed. TOS gave us cold wars with the Klingons and Romulans, the destruction of entire solar systems by Nomad and the Doomsday Machine, the millennia-long enslavement of entire civilizations by Landru and Vaal, the endangerment of the entire Earth by V'Ger and the whale probe, etc. TNG gave us renewed Romulan and Cardassian threats and the looming menace of the Borg. And so on. The optimism was in the victories gained over these threats, and in the way those victories were gained, through compassion and generosity and a belief in peace and freedom rather than simply through force of arms. But those victories wouldn't have been as meaningful if the challenges hadn't been grave.
Please DO NOT suggest story ideas on this board!
There's no such thing. That's a term used by Star Wars fans who think their particular terminology can be generalized. But it's a misleading term and rather an annoying one, because it creates a false equivalence between the approach of SW tie-ins and the very different approach of ST tie-ins.
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Well not so much anymore really.
Without any live action Trek beyond Nemesis you can move the story beyond that point as Destiny and the Typhon Pact demonstrates or how ten years ago the Post Finale DS9 books began to show.
Star Wars novels on the whole have been moving the story more and more forward upto the point that stories are some four decades after Return of the Jedi.
Without any real possibility of any post Jedi or post Nemesis live action instalments, neither of these book series have any chance of being superseded.
Maybe Expanded Universe isn't 100% accurate, but the way that Star Wars and Star Trek novels have progressed the storylines past there last chronological live action instalment with major game changers and not needing to put the toys back in the sandbox are very similar to each other.
The execution may be completely different. The parallels are certainly there.
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Now make no mistake, part of me likes the idea of the Typhon Pact. However, I'm afraid TPTB will attempt to dumb down the Pact and make it into a stereotypical black-hat villain created simply to undermine and destroy the Federation for teh evuls!!!!11! I fear that someone in charge (doesn't have to be the writers) will demand the Typhon Pact or the Federation be made more malevolent as a lead up to some big war arc in a flawed attempt to make Star Trek Darker and Edgier (TM). Trek is at its best when it doesn't solve its problems with phasers and photon torpedoes. I hope the Typhon Pact endures, it's certainly a fascinating concept but I have little faith in TPTB to not turn the Typhon Pact into some strange Legion of Doom pastiche.
I truly hope my predictions do not come to pass, I hope you as a writer specifically avoid taking the Typhon Pact in that direction. If I want a war story, I'll go to Star Wars (I'm sure there's some kind of war brewing there). If I want a story about an optimistic future or a story about exploring other worlds, I'll read a Star Trek book. Don't forget what made Star Trek great is what I'm getting at.
I truly hope my predictions do not come to pass, I hope you as a writer specifically avoid taking the Typhon Pact in that direction. If I want a war story, I'll go to Star Wars (I'm sure there's some kind of war brewing there). If I want a story about an optimistic future or a story about exploring other worlds, I'll read a Star Trek book. Don't forget what made Star Trek great is what I'm getting at.
I'm not sure what you mean by "TPTB." Generally the story ideas come from the writers, or sometimes from the editor. It's not like there's some committee at CBS or something that's handing down instructions. All they're concerned with is ensuring that we don't contradict canon.
And if there were some kind of "powers" requiring us to take the Pact in the direction you fear, then I wouldn't have been allowed to tell the story I'm telling in The Struggle Within, which comes out next month.
Okay then, I guess I had the wrong idea about how Trek stories are written then. Well, I like the Typhon Pact, resist the temptation to dumb it down and make it grimdark for grimdark's sake and Trek should do fine.
