Speaking of which are those things even real? They're huge!
Seven was assimilated into the Federation Collective
- Thread starter Garren
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Speaking of which are those things even real? They're huge!
Seven's story (season 4's first episodes) was written so to not put Janeway in a much awkward position. After the second or 3rd episode Voyager was put much far away from Borg space, so it was impossible for 7 to return even if given a shuttlecraft. Leaving her in some planet was not an option for she would surely perish alone. The only option was to keep her aboard, and the best prospect there was to become as human as possible.
They even had the Doctor mention the Borg implants were being rejected or something. Not much room for any thing else. Tidy. And the show got the new intriguing, catsuited character it was intended withat Janeway looking like the space bitch.
They even had the Doctor mention the Borg implants were being rejected or something. Not much room for any thing else. Tidy. And the show got the new intriguing, catsuited character it was intended withat Janeway looking like the space bitch.
Seven leaves in a Shuttle.
Assimilates a planet.
Has her choice of transwarp capable cubes to go home in after a week.
Assimilates a planet.
Has her choice of transwarp capable cubes to go home in after a week.
Janeway made a choice despite the heat of naysayers. She took that burden on herself time after time, and spared her crew the ethical dilemmas.
I think it was pretty clear Janeway gave Seven not only that choice, but the power to make an informed choice. The Borg had not.
I think the Borg have no case against someone assimilating one of their own. Whether Janeway violated her own ethics seems to be the only pertinent question.
Absolute cultural relativism is the copout and a hypocrisy too. If someone claims to speak for someone's rights, then one is affirming they do, in fact, have rights worthy of defending. Or is cultural relativism really just a justification to cop out of taking a stand? Taking a stand is risky; that is why it takes real courage.
Making no choice ~ is also a choice. With consequences. Whether living in denial of them or not.
Playing a victim is no free pass.
I think it was pretty clear Janeway gave Seven not only that choice, but the power to make an informed choice. The Borg had not.
I think the Borg have no case against someone assimilating one of their own. Whether Janeway violated her own ethics seems to be the only pertinent question.
Absolute cultural relativism is the copout and a hypocrisy too. If someone claims to speak for someone's rights, then one is affirming they do, in fact, have rights worthy of defending. Or is cultural relativism really just a justification to cop out of taking a stand? Taking a stand is risky; that is why it takes real courage.
Making no choice ~ is also a choice. With consequences. Whether living in denial of them or not.
Playing a victim is no free pass.
Janeway gave Seven the opportunity to make a choice after she had been thoroughly brainwashed to be incapable of not agreeing with Janeway's point of view in this matter.
Sounds Borgy to me.
Sounds Borgy to me.
Right, because the Borg gave Annika a free choice to be with her own people or serve a totalitarian techno-cult. Yes, that was very respectful of her rights of them. Yes, they clearly put her rights above their own when it came to honoring her choices. The little girl screaming was just the brainwash of her parents coming apart.
Seven was given the choice, literally, to return to the Borg after a sufficient passage of time. Before this, she was free to leave the ship for any planet she wanted, once Janeway was satisfied of Seven's deprogramming. Seven was free to compare humanity with all of the other alien races they encountered along the way. Seven was free to not only continually challenge Janeway on her tactics, but to also be heard and considered. Not once did Seven choose to say "Enough! I'm out of here." She could have at any time.
Seven chose to remain aboard Voyager.
Yes, we could interpret Janeway's conviction as oppression. Kirk took the same kind of value stands - knowing they were his biased beliefs, and not necessarily universal.
These captains knew themselves, took stands, and didn't evaporate in a gray fog of cultural relativism. Not when lives were at stake.
Why should we believe allowing the Borg to use Annika up and spit her out is "enlightened?" Why not take back what was wrongfully lost? It's called doing the right thing in spite of the letter of the law (though in this case, I don't think Seven's rescue ran counter to the Fed Charter. The Fed is in a state of war with the Borg, and that was due to the Borg's actual threat of actual destruction).
Yes, you can respect other cultures, but if you think you are above bias, then you're in denial. Better to know your biases and make choices with judgments you can withstand and still sleep at night. For any human with an intelligent conscience.
If one takes issue with oppression, why not take it with the Borg? More likely, some just rail against authority figures of any kind, perhaps because one is free of ever having to be responsible for the welfare of a group of people who have freely volunteered to participate.
Using the language of rights isn't enough. Rights must also be demonstrated - and willing to be held accountable under a cold, critical eye.
Cults know all the victim language, but in the end, they want your metaphorical soul if not your actual one. And yes, cult collectives do exist in the world today, on massive scale. The collective takes on supernatural, unaccountable, authoritative characteristics, and nothing outside its authorization has any validity whatsoever.
The problem with that is, that is real, actual brainwashing, if you care about that sort of thing. Luckily some of us are in a position not to have our own minds arrested by that perspective alone.
The complaints of anti-authority positions are easily endured compared with the threat of actual totalitarian oppression of an actual cult.
Again, in democracy you are free to run off and join the Borg if you want. In the Borg, you are not free to make that decision. Face it, some of us really don't have a problem with brainwashing, do we. We just might have a problem with mainstream opinion. Best of luck with that opinion in the Borg!
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For Lunch would you rather have a shit sandwich or an ice cream float?
"Deprogramming" is all the Borg did too.
I'm not saying the Borg are good, just that Janeway is bad, maybe they're badder, but she's still not good, but then the situation did not call for a good person.
Besides, the Ferengi were smart enough to use the prime Directive against Janeway when they were already caught dead to rights.
Seven does not have that much wit.
The Prime Directive does not apply to Humans (And other memberworld citizens... Although deeding their people over to the Cardassians is part of what generated the Maquis, but then merely chosing to opt out without permission did not seem to make the Maquis unapplicable to Federation law.) and logically presumably the Prime Directive does not apply to species the Federation is at war with... Which is practically what that hottie Nachayev said in TNG I, Borg. Although if you lose a War to a the Federation, if you lose bad enough, not Neutral Zones but unconditional surrender, wouldn't that automatically make those losers Federation memberworlds after a fashion? Considering the hoops Bajor jumped through, maybe declaring war and then immediately surrendering would save time and stress for prospective species?
"Deprogramming" is all the Borg did too.
I'm not saying the Borg are good, just that Janeway is bad, maybe they're badder, but she's still not good, but then the situation did not call for a good person.
Besides, the Ferengi were smart enough to use the prime Directive against Janeway when they were already caught dead to rights.
Seven does not have that much wit.
The Prime Directive does not apply to Humans (And other memberworld citizens... Although deeding their people over to the Cardassians is part of what generated the Maquis, but then merely chosing to opt out without permission did not seem to make the Maquis unapplicable to Federation law.) and logically presumably the Prime Directive does not apply to species the Federation is at war with... Which is practically what that hottie Nachayev said in TNG I, Borg. Although if you lose a War to a the Federation, if you lose bad enough, not Neutral Zones but unconditional surrender, wouldn't that automatically make those losers Federation memberworlds after a fashion? Considering the hoops Bajor jumped through, maybe declaring war and then immediately surrendering would save time and stress for prospective species?
No. This is Star Trek, at it's core it is about humanity.
Maybe NuTrek will get over itself and be about something bigger but I doubt it.
They should try to make the next one more about manlovings.
TOS was already all about manlovings.
We all did.
The Chute. All the classic themes.
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