Seven Deadly Sins--cover on amazon

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm least excited and most apprehensive about the Mirror Universe story, because of the previous hit-and-miss (i.e. very little hit and a lot and lot of miss) treatment of DS9 MU, both canon and non-canon, especially it's labeled as "Lust". I hope that's out of necessity to assign it to a specific sin rather than an accurate sign of what the story is about, since I've never been a fan of the MU stories use of sex, i.e. promiscuity and homosexuality/bisexuality, to show how eeevil the MU world is. Perhaps even the lust angle could be worked into a good story, but that has hardly happened so far. The only thing that sounds good about this is that it's written by Britta Dennison, who co-wrote the excellent Night of the Wolves and Dawn of the Eagles, so I hope she can write a better story than some of the previous MU offerings have been (like the IMO rather shallow and unimaginative Saturn's Children).

Yeah, really. And don't forget the whole Dark Passions series, which was basically nothing BUT the sex aspect of the MU.

That whole thing was how DS9 completely and totally ruined the Mirror Universe, in my book. I, like you, am not optimistic at all about this story, especially with it being categorized under Lust.

 

[Christopher]

I fail to see how DS9 can be blamed for "ruining" the Mirror Universe with sexuality when the original episode had a "Captain's Woman" (essentially a concubine), Sulu constantly hitting on Uhura, and the women (and Kirk) wearing even less than usual. The MU was established from the start as a place whose inhabitants indulge their appetites with little restraint or inhibition. DS9 was simply able to depict that more openly than '60s broadcast standards permitted.

Keep in mind that "lust" doesn't have to mean sexual desire exclusively. It means craving, hunger, ravenous appetite. One can have a lust for power, a lust for wealth, a lust for blood. The Mirror Universe is a world where all those lusts are far more openly displayed and indulged.

 

[DevilEyes]

I fail to see how DS9 can be blamed for "ruining" the Mirror Universe with sexuality when the original episode had a "Captain's Woman" (essentially a concubine), Sulu constantly hitting on Uhura, and the women (and Kirk) wearing even less than usual. The MU was established from the start as a place whose inhabitants indulge their appetites with little restraint or inhibition. DS9 was simply able to depict that more openly than '60s broadcast standards permitted.

We are very lucky that the 1960s censorship prevented "Mirror Mirror" from indulging into the 'depraved bisexuals/homosexuals' trope. At least in the TOS episode, everyone had the same sexual preferences as their counterparts from the prime universe (Sulu even had a thing for Uhura in the PU, see "The Naked Time", but unlike MU Sulu was not aggressive about it when in the normal state of mind), so things still made some sense.

Keep in mind that "lust" doesn't have to mean sexual desire exclusively. It means craving, hunger, ravenous appetite. One can have a lust for power, a lust for wealth, a lust for blood. The Mirror Universe is a world where all those lusts are far more openly displayed and indulged.

Good point, and I really hope you are right and that this story deals with all those types of lust.

 

[Christopher]

We are very lucky that the 1960s censorship prevented "Mirror Mirror" from indulging into the 'depraved bisexuals/homosexuals' trope. At least in the TOS episode, everyone had the same sexual preferences as their counterparts from the prime universe (Sulu even had a thing for Uhura in the PU, see "The Naked Time", but unlike MU Sulu was not aggressive about it when in the normal state of mind), so things still made some sense.

I agree the implied stereotype there was unfortunate. But how do we know that Kira, Ezri, and Leeta aren't bisexual, at least potentially, in the Prime Universe? We know from "Rejoined" that Kira considers gender a non-issue in relationship matters; she asks Jadzia why she doesn't renew Dax's relationship with Kahn as if the fact that they're both women now doesn't even occur to her as a factor. That suggests that Bajoran culture as a whole may be flexible about orientation, and Leeta certainly isn't a prude. And joined Trills change their sex all the time, so bisexuality is probably a cultural norm there.

Besides, sexual expression can be culturally influenced. In our culture, historically, GLBT people have generally been pressured to conform to the heterosexual norm. Maybe in the lustier Mirror Universe, bisexuality is a cultural norm and the social pressure is for everyone to conform to that instead. Which arguably could make sense in a universe where sex is defined more as a tool for power and manipulation than an expression of love and affection. It's not as useful a tool if you can only wield it against half the population.

Still, you're right -- even though we can rationalize it those ways after the fact, the episodes did give the unfortunate impression that the "good" versions were hetero and the "evil" versions were bi, with all that implies.

 

[Stevil2001]

Yeah, really. And don't forget the whole Dark Passions series, which was basically nothing BUT the sex aspect of the MU.

Except, without any actual sex!

We know from "Rejoined" that Kira considers gender a non-issue in relationship matters; she asks Jadzia why she doesn't renew Dax's relationship with Kahn as if the fact that they're both women now doesn't even occur to her as a factor.

Surely that indicates that Kira knows gender is a non-issue for Jadzia more than anything else?

 

[Christopher]

It's just the way she said it, as if she took it for granted that gender wasn't an issue, period. Here's the actual line (and I forgot, she was saying it about Jadzia, not asking her directly):

One thing I don't understand is why Dax and Lenara can't just pick up where they left off. I mean, if they're still in love with each other.

Since she phrased it terms of "[what] I don't understand," that strikes me as an indication of her own worldview. There's also the totally casual way Nana Visitor delivered the line -- not as someone personally uncomfortable with bisexuality accepting than an alien had different ways, but as someone who just plain never considered that the respective sexes of Dax and Kahn could possibly be a factor in the discussion.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's just the way she said it, as if she took it for granted that gender wasn't an issue, period. Here's the actual line (and I forgot, she was saying it about Jadzia, not asking her directly):

One thing I don't understand is why Dax and Lenara can't just pick up where they left off. I mean, if they're still in love with each other.

Since she phrased it terms of "[what] I don't understand," that strikes me as an indication of her own worldview. There's also the totally casual way Nana Visitor delivered the line -- not as someone personally uncomfortable with bisexuality accepting than an alien had different ways, but as someone who just plain never considered that the respective sexes of Dax and Kahn could possibly be a factor in the discussion.

Agreed. The obvious implication was that the Bajoran religion, for all its faults, didn't have any hang-ups about same-sex relations.

Which was kind of cool.

 

[DevilEyes]

I agree the implied stereotype there was unfortunate. But how do we know that Kira, Ezri, and Leeta aren't bisexual, at least potentially, in the Prime Universe? We know from "Rejoined" that Kira considers gender a non-issue in relationship matters; she asks Jadzia why she doesn't renew Dax's relationship with Kahn as if the fact that they're both women now doesn't even occur to her as a factor. That suggests that Bajoran culture as a whole may be flexible about orientation, and Leeta certainly isn't a prude. And joined Trills change their sex all the time, so bisexuality is probably a cultural norm there.

It's just the way she said it, as if she took it for granted that gender wasn't an issue, period. Here's the actual line (and I forgot, she was saying it about Jadzia, not asking her directly):

One thing I don't understand is why Dax and Lenara can't just pick up where they left off. I mean, if they're still in love with each other.

Since she phrased it terms of "[what] I don't understand," that strikes me as an indication of her own worldview. There's also the totally casual way Nana Visitor delivered the line -- not as someone personally uncomfortable with bisexuality accepting than an alien had different ways, but as someone who just plain never considered that the respective sexes of Dax and Kahn could possibly be a factor in the discussion.

Agreed. The obvious implication was that the Bajoran religion, for all its faults, didn't have any hang-ups about same-sex relations.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean that Kira is bisexual, it just means that she doesn't think that there is anything wrong with relationships between people of the same sex. Being completely devoid of any homophobia has no bearing on what one's own sexual preferences are.

Which only makes it less likely that Kira is bisexual in the Prime Universe. If she were, there is no reason why she wouldn't pursue or consider pursuing any relationships with women, since there seem to be no cultural/religious norms against it, and she would have no reason to suppress any attractions to women or try to conform to (the non-existent) heteronormativity. But for 7 years of the show, we get to see her only in a few relationships with men*;only attracted to men; when Dax and Kira discuss dating, Dax says "I think you are paying too much attention to men's looks", rather than "a person's looks/people's looks" (The Maquis) and again, when Dax is trying to find a date for Kira, she only keeps suggesting male aliens, and they end up commenting on each other's "taste in men" (Resurrection).

*Biologically, Odo has no sex, he is neither male nor female, but his gender is clearly male - he self-identifies as male, chooses to exclusively take male shape when in humanoid form, and everyone seems to consider him male.

We could rationalize that bisexuality is the norm in the MU. But the Intendant didn't use sex just for manipulation, she was portrayed as someone who had sex with both men and women for her own pleasure - I certainly don't see what other advantage she could get out of having both male and female sex slaves. And regardless, we'd still be left with the association of bisexuality with the evil, decadent universe where everything goes, which is troubling if the "good" Prime Universe doesn't seem to have any gay or bisexual people in it (apart from joined Trills reconnecting with their partners in the previous life), not from what we actually get to see. Some of them may be gay or bisexual in theory, but that doesn't help a lot.

 

[Stevil2001]

I don't disagree; it's obviously culturally acceptable. I'm just saying it's not necessarily true that Kira is bisexual.

ETA: DevilEyes snuck in above me and said (some of) the same thing as me; I was replying to Christopher and Greg.

 

[Christopher]

I don't disagree; it's obviously culturally acceptable. I'm just saying it's not necessarily true that Kira is bisexual.

But my point is that since Mirror Kira is bi, it stands to reason that Prime Kira potentially is too. It would certainly make that portrayal of Mirror Kira more palatable and less like the "lesbians are evil" stereotype. And the line in "Rejoined" helps to support that postulate, though unfortunately it's the only thing that does.

 

[JoeZhang]

But my point is that since Mirror Kira is bi, it stands to reason that Prime Kira potentially is too.

But she's 'good' so it's unlikely, it's generally only evil people who are greedy bisexuals in popular media.

 

[Christopher]

But she's 'good' so it's unlikely, it's generally only evil people who are greedy bisexuals in popular media.

You're not listening to me. I'm specifically proposing a way to reject that stereotype. You know it's invalid, I know it's invalid, everyone with half a brain knows it's invalid, so let's find a way to interpret what we were shown onscreen that isn't beholden to that stupid prejudice. If we look at it logically and without stereotyped assumptions, the obvious conclusion from the fact that Mirror Kira is bisexual is that Prime Kira should be as well. It just stands to reason.

 

[JoeZhang]

But she's 'good' so it's unlikely, it's generally only evil people who are greedy bisexuals in popular media.

You're not listening to me. I'm specifically proposing a way to reject that stereotype. You know it's invalid, I know it's invalid, everyone with half a brain knows it's invalid, so let's find a way to interpret what we were shown onscreen that isn't beholden to that stupid prejudice. If we look at it logically and without stereotyped assumptions, the obvious conclusion from the fact that Mirror Kira is bisexual is that Prime Kira should be as well. It just stands to reason.

If that ever makes it on the page, we've got something to talk about - but it isn't, so we don't.

 

[Christopher]

If that ever makes it on the page, we've got something to talk about - but it isn't, so we don't.

What? Are you saying that fans don't have the right to exercise their imaginations to try to fill in the gaps and reconcile the flaws in a fictional text? I disagree profoundly with that, since that exercise is pretty much the basis of all Trek Lit.

Even more generally, story is not dogma. The reader or viewer always has the right to engage with the material and interpret it, to bring something of oneself to the experience. All fiction is interactive if you apply your mind to it rather than just soaking it up passively. It's contradictory to say that we have nothing to talk about if it isn't on the page. Practically the entirety of literary criticism and media analysis consists of talking about things that aren't on the page -- subtext, interpretation, speculative extrapolation, rationalization, etc. If you don't think there's any point in such discussion, why in the name of all that's holy are you a member of an online bulletin board?

 

[JoeZhang]

If that ever makes it on the page, we've got something to talk about - but it isn't, so we don't.

What? Are you saying that fans don't have the right to exercise their imaginations to try to fill in the gaps and reconcile the flaws in a fictional text? I disagree profoundly with that, since that exercise is pretty much the basis of all Trek Lit.

Even more generally, story is not dogma. The reader or viewer always has the right to engage with the material and interpret it, to bring something of oneself to the experience. All fiction is interactive if you apply your mind to it rather than just soaking it up passively. It's contradictory to say that we have nothing to talk about if it isn't on the page. Practically the entirety of literary criticism and media analysis consists of talking about things that aren't on the page -- subtext, interpretation, speculative extrapolation, rationalization, etc. If you don't think there's any point in such discussion, why in the name of all that's holy are you a member of an online bulletin board?

WHOOSH!

 

[Lonemagpie]

My copies arrived today - they look great!

 

[JD]

How early do you guys get your copies? Should it be popping up in stores soon?

 

[Greg Cox]

My copies arrived today - they look great!

Ooh! I'm jealous. I haven't seen mine yet.


(Although I got my copy of TIMESHARES, a non-Trek anthology earlier this week.)

 

[Lonemagpie]

My copies arrived today - they look great!

Ooh! I'm jealous. I haven't seen mine yet.


(Although I got my copy of TIMESHARES, a non-Trek anthology earlier this week.)

I'm actually shocked, cos I thought that, being in the UK, I'd get them later than the US-based contributors (and because I still haven't got my copies of Born For Adversity yet, and that came out at the beginning of the month...)

 

[Dayton Ward]

Still waiting on mine, too. Glad to hear they look sweet