Seven at Wolf 359

[Admiral Shran]

I was over in the Enterprise forum, talking about large continuity problems and ways to explain them when it occured to me that one of the largest continuity problems about Voyager I always hear mentioned is...

How could Seven of Nine and the Borg Queen have been present at the Battle of Wolf 359 when that Borg Cube was completely destroyed? For that matter, how could the former drones from the episode Unity have been at, or assimilated at, the battle?

I'll offer this possible explanation....

Star Trek: First Contact clearly establishes that Borg cubes (at least some of them) are equipped with smaller vessels (the Borg Sphere). Since there is no canon evidence to contradict it, it appears reasonable that the Cube at Wolf 359 could also have a Sphere onboard. If that is the case, the Battle could have taken place, then the Sphere could have seperated from the Cube. At that point, the Cube continued onto Earth under Locutus' command and the Sphere returned to the Delta Quadrant. Starfleet personnel could have been assimilated at the Battle and taken to the Delta Quadrant by the Sphere. In addition, this would mean that both the Borg Queen and Seven of Nine could have been present at the Battle and survived by returning to the Delta Quadrant before the Cube was destroyed. Also, since there are large periods of time during The Best of Both Worlds, Part II (both before and after the battle) where the action focuses on the Enterprise, not the Cube, we can't be certain what the Borg were doing exactly. These events could have simply taken place offscreen.

Thoughts?

 

[Michael]

Er, I think you're misremembering what was actually said in Infinite Regress. They don't suggest Seven herself was present at Wolf 359, but that the neural patterns of those people assimilated in her time as a drone were stored in the Borg's hive mind and are now emerging inside her. Which probably also explains how the Borg Queen (or one of the Borg Queens) could be present at Wolf 359. All the Borg's minds are linked in the collective hive mind. That's how they know what happened at Wolf 359.

 

[Kegg]

^
Indeed. The series is actually pretty specific about how Seven was assimilated; it was as the result of an unrelated event covered in "Dark Frontier", in which Starfleet researchers tracked Borg and found out they bit off more then they could chew.

The problem is these events happened before "Q, Who?", which is prior to the Federation contacting the Borg (before Enterprise muddied the waters even further in "Regeneration", as it were.)

 

[Kai Winn]

The problem is these events happened before "Q, Who?", which is prior to the Federation contacting the Borg (before Enterprise muddied the waters even further in "Regeneration", as it were.)

a mere 10 years before 'q, who?', far from federation space, and the hansen's possibly failed to notify the federation about their assimilation. even if they had, it could be that picard had no knowledge of it yet, information does not travel at infinite speed trough subspace either. the enterprise episode is more problematic, indeed.

 

[Michael]

The problem is these events happened before "Q, Who?", which is prior to the Federation contacting the Borg (before Enterprise muddied the waters even further in "Regeneration", as it were.)

a mere 10 years before 'q, who?', far from federation space, and the hansen's possibly failed to notify the federation about their assimilation. even if they had, it could be that picard had no knowledge of it yet, information does not travel at infinite speed trough subspace either. the enterprise episode is more problematic, indeed.

I don't think that's the point Kegg is trying to make. The problem with Dark Frontier is, that the Hansen's were actually looking for the Borg — years before the Federation's (alleged) first encounter with them.

 

[Kegg]

^
Precisely. They seem to know who the Borg are before encountering them, which is far more than "Q, Who?" implies the Federation has - that episode is actually based on the whole assumption they've never heard of these guys.

 

[pookha]

it really didnt make sense that everyone had not heard of the borg.
look guinan and some of her people made it to federation space.
so someone would have interviewed them.
we also know from q who itself that they see a connection between the destruction in qwho and the destruction seen previously in the neutral zone.

it could be some sub segment of starfleet security or even section 31 that had access to the events in generation decided more needed to be known about the force that wiped out the world guinan's people came from.

 

[Kegg]

it really didnt make sense that everyone had not heard of the borg.
look guinan and some of her people made it to federation space.

Another problem, yes. "Q, Who?" suggests that Guinan's powers are comparable to Q, and there's nothing there (or anywhere during TNG's run) to indicate there are any others of her species even alive let alone around, or even how long she's been in our area of space.

So it made sense at the time of the episode moreso than it does now.

we also know from q who itself that they see a connection between the destruction in qwho and the destruction seen previously in the neutral zone.

Yep. But what of it? That's still after the events of "Dark Frontier", and they had no idea who caused that destruction or why.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm more curious about this... If the Queen loved and made love to Locutus, then all the Borg loved and made love to locutus, then Seven loved and made love to Locutus... So?

How well is she going to be able to "contain" herself when she finally meets Picard?

In some situations (Yes with the Queen, and Janeway too) the Borg use Holographic avatars to staff some (command/observation?) positions which is honestly the most ultimate use of utility ever that drones can be replaced by reflections and ghosts if the task fits their skillset. it's possibly that a "portion" of the crew never actually left the Delta Quadrant.

If Janeway can transports her crew though a microwormwhoel into Romulan space then surely the borg can transport crew through their transwarp conduits from one side of the galaxy to the other almost instantly.... Or does that go without saying?

 

[Finn]

Some remarks of Q's in Q Who implied all the signs were there for Starfleet to know about the Borg. Chances are Section 31, few scienists and a small section of Starfleet intelligence (the offical one) knew about them well before the events of Q Who.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Or we were watching different timelines.

7 is from a time line where Picard journeyed the 2060s. Picard is not. season 1-3 are set in a different timeline from Scorpion through to Fury. And all the adventures some kathy had after Fury through to Endgame, well it wasn't our kathy because our kathy never murdered kes between episdes 4 and 5 of seaosn one which the Janeway of seaosn 7 clearly had done.

 

[Kai Winn]

ok, there was also cochrans assistant who's seen the borg in action in fc. it's no voyager-continuity problem, but tng.

 

[Finn]

^Except all of that would explain the Borg attacks from TNG's The Neutral Zone, which took place before Q Who.

 

[Guy Gardener]

ok, there was also cochrans assistant who's seen the borg in action in fc. it's no voyager-continuity problem, but tng.

What lilly saw had no impact on rcorded history that we know of. However we do know from Enterprise that Chocrane got drunk and starting screaming about Borg during his birthday party. Lilly and Zeph are both smart enough not to frak witht he timeline or run the risk of getting done to them what was done to Grampy Braxton.

TNG changed Voyagers continuity when their wardrobe department acceptted the left over props and Borg costumes from the movie. Voyager is a victim. A victim of it's own greed for cool stuff.

Without living in a post First contact Timeline, theBorg would still ook like they did in 1989 and seven of Nine would not have known about the Borg trying to stop the pheonix because THAT never happened in the past before the events in First Contact took place.

In the "original" Timeline janeway dies, and Captain Chakotay plots a course well past krenim space without seeing so much a single cube according to Before and After.

 

[T'Girl]

Which probably also explains how the Borg Queen (or one of the Borg Queens) could be present at Wolf 359. All the Borg's minds are linked in the collective hive mind. That's how they know what happened at Wolf 359.

I've thought of the possibility that the multiple Borg Queens have a mini-collective of their own.

I don't think that's the point Kegg is trying to make. The problem with Dark Frontier is, that the Hansen's were actually looking for the Borg — years before the Federation's (alleged) first encounter with them.

The Hansons could have started by chasing rumors.

By the time they knew what it was they were researching and perhaps linked with the information in their data base about Archer's encounter with Humans turning into "robot-people" they had already passed through a few conduits into sections of space where they could no longer communicate with the alpha quadrant.

The Hansons defiantly weren't Starfleet, the importance of reporting in might not have occurred to them. They came across to me as a bit self-adsorbed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

sasquatch, yeti and bigfoot...

As long as they stay away from the cities and don't make no noticeable rampaging, the respective governments don't mind if a few rednecks get eaten every year.

Yes, there are rednecks in Tibet.

But honestly would you be able to tell a bigfoot from a Yeti if you were in Mexico?

Yes, obviously that's a Chupacabra, but the earlier point about "robot people" all looking the same is about as racist as it is salient.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I still think my theory holds water, especially with the former drones in Unity. One flat out says she was assimilated at Wolf 359. That could not have happened if at least some of the Borg from the battle returned to the Delta Quadrant before the Cube was destroyed above Earth.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well yes, it's always been ridiculous to think that the Borg Stopped and then sent a few runabout sized support vessels with prisoners in them back home for questioning because it's a waste of... However Borg ultraefficiency would detest having excess crew and their ability to "build" support craft from the wreckage wouldn't be as easy as assimilating entire ships and crews that complete starships with crews of hundred now all Borg would have their own "missions" to deal with be it aiding the continued assault or returning "home" because given how the Borg operate it's almost impossible that the assault fleet heading towards earth wasn't multiplying by unusual high factors come every inch of their journey to the target unless they purposely decided that they only wanted one cube for the job and god nab it, it's a borish waste to use more than cube.

 

[tvih]

The Borg timeline indeed feels a bit fractured as a whole. TNG, First Contact, Voyager and Enterprise all add their own elements to that murky soup - for example the NX-01 obviously encountered the Borg earlier than Picard did in "Q, Who?" only to be beat by Picard again - as far as timeline goes year-wise - in "First Contact" which led to NX-01's situation to begin with. Time travel, I tell ya...

I'm not overly bothered, since what fictional universe wouldn't have its continuity errors, especially ones with just a few too many time travel incidents... besides, as far as time travel goes, isn't it awfully convenient that the "future police" doesn't stop the events in Timeless from happening, yet they intervene in Relativity and, of course, Future's End? It doesn't really make sense, just like some things in the Borg timeline, but don't let that get in the way of the story at hand

As far as people being assimilated at Wolf-359... well, there's the sphere theory, and possibly the Borg assimilating (semi-)intact ships that they then send elsewhere, and so on and so on. Numerous possible explanations. All of them are not necessarily 100% logical, but then again the Borg aren't exactly logical either.

 

[pookha]

it really didnt make sense that everyone had not heard of the borg.
look guinan and some of her people made it to federation space.

Another problem, yes. "Q, Who?" suggests that Guinan's powers are comparable to Q, and there's nothing there (or anywhere during TNG's run) to indicate there are any others of her species even alive let alone around, or even how long she's been in our area of space.

So it made sense at the time of the episode moreso than it does now.

we also know from q who itself that they see a connection between the destruction in qwho and the destruction seen previously in the neutral zone.

Yep. But what of it? That's still after the events of "Dark Frontier", and they had no idea who caused that destruction or why.

we dont know if someone in starfleet intelligence, section 31 hadnt started to put the pieces together yet.
as for assimilation at wolf,,
i do like what tvih suggested.
they assimilated some or just one starfleet ship and sent it back for more through study ect..