Set blueprint exchange
- Thread starter Redgeneral
- Start date
Sorry for taking so long to respond to this thread - I've had some health problems this past month and so haven't really been online.
Count - those are great plans, and I've added them to the ST Experience folder http://archive.frogland.co.uk/#15444655187362
batboy853 - those were on the archive site, but they have been removed along with a few others. The images were photos by Joe and were removed at his request. However Joe is currently building his own archive site and hopefully they will be available there as cleans scans instead of the fuzzy photos.
Some good news: After a over year of work, the Runabout project is nearing completion and I hope to release in June.
[Car seat model by Rekkert]
Count - those are great plans, and I've added them to the ST Experience folder http://archive.frogland.co.uk/#15444655187362
batboy853 - those were on the archive site, but they have been removed along with a few others. The images were photos by Joe and were removed at his request. However Joe is currently building his own archive site and hopefully they will be available there as cleans scans instead of the fuzzy photos.
Some good news: After a over year of work, the Runabout project is nearing completion and I hope to release in June.
[Car seat model by Rekkert]
Bummer about your health, I can relate as I am currently recovering from ACL surgery.
Also bummer those prints, but hopefully joe will have his site up and running and have his collection available to the public soon. Now I wish I had been keeping my own archive these past years,
That runabout looks amazing!
Also bummer those prints, but hopefully joe will have his site up and running and have his collection available to the public soon. Now I wish I had been keeping my own archive these past years,
That runabout looks amazing!
I hope you get better soon! 
That bit about Joe explains where the DS9 Warbird bridge blueprints went.
I hope to see them back online soon as well.
The Runabout interior is looking great! I always loved that big "there's definitely not a CRT hidden inside" corner piece they had during the early seasons.
That bit about Joe explains where the DS9 Warbird bridge blueprints went.
I hope to see them back online soon as well.The Runabout interior is looking great! I always loved that big "there's definitely not a CRT hidden inside" corner piece they had during the early seasons.
@batboy853 - I hope your recovery goes well with the knee.
@Rekkert - I've always loved the early Runabout with it's CRT corner displays. It always felt like it was a "used" working ship, whereas a shuttle often seemed like it just came off the showroom floor. What other ship comes with transporter jammed into the cockpit...
@BorgMan - Its all made in sketchup, but with a few extra plugins:
- Quick lathe [https://sketchucation.com/pluginstore?pln=Quick_Lathe]
- Fredo6 plugins (LibFredo6, RoundCorner, JointPushPull, ToolsOnSurface, BezierSpline) [https://sketchucation.com/pluginstore?listtype=2&author=1057&category=0]
One of the unusual parts of this project was having to make fonts. At the fleet workshop forum, we looked into the font used for small and large stickers - it was identified as Compacta Light, but I found the later digital version did not match the original letraset sheets. So I did the only possible thing - I bought an old letraset sheet from Etzy, scanned it, and then recreated it in vector to make a more accurate font.
With the font I was able to make the new blueprint pages for the small and large labels.
Font preview:
If anyone wants the font to make their own labels (cg or physical) then its here: http://frogland.co.uk/redgeneral/forum_images/Compacta_Light_Digitized_Redgeneral.zip
@Rekkert - I've always loved the early Runabout with it's CRT corner displays. It always felt like it was a "used" working ship, whereas a shuttle often seemed like it just came off the showroom floor. What other ship comes with transporter jammed into the cockpit...
@BorgMan - Its all made in sketchup, but with a few extra plugins:
- Quick lathe [https://sketchucation.com/pluginstore?pln=Quick_Lathe]
- Fredo6 plugins (LibFredo6, RoundCorner, JointPushPull, ToolsOnSurface, BezierSpline) [https://sketchucation.com/pluginstore?listtype=2&author=1057&category=0]
One of the unusual parts of this project was having to make fonts. At the fleet workshop forum, we looked into the font used for small and large stickers - it was identified as Compacta Light, but I found the later digital version did not match the original letraset sheets. So I did the only possible thing - I bought an old letraset sheet from Etzy, scanned it, and then recreated it in vector to make a more accurate font.
With the font I was able to make the new blueprint pages for the small and large labels.
Font preview:
If anyone wants the font to make their own labels (cg or physical) then its here: http://frogland.co.uk/redgeneral/forum_images/Compacta_Light_Digitized_Redgeneral.zip
Got some new blueprints that i didn't see on the site, mostly disco and room closeups: https://www.thetrekcollective.com/2019/02/oodles-of-discovery-production-art-from.html
I have to admit, I'm dissapointed if you're removing blueprint images we've collected over the years at other people's request. Firstly they're lower def than the authentic things and second, if they're not hosted elsewhere, that is content lost forever.
Your call of course, but I'm not sure I want to continue contributing if publicly available content is going to be randomly removed. I might just go back to hosting everything myself.
I have to admit, I'm dissapointed if you're removing blueprint images we've collected over the years at other people's request. Firstly they're lower def than the authentic things and second, if they're not hosted elsewhere, that is content lost forever.
Your call of course, but I'm not sure I want to continue contributing if publicly available content is going to be randomly removed. I might just go back to hosting everything myself.
The problem is that those files probably belong to Joe. He poured money into them and from that point I can understand if he wants to make a return. Even low quality stuff can be enough for some people to not even need the originals, which means he loses out on money. We've been moving away from "everything's free on the internet" for a long time now and if what I say is the case, I honestly can't blame him...
@Count:
Ownership of images ultimately still remains with the original author. If that person makes a request that they be removed, I am legally required to do so. If I don't, they legally can go the server owner and have the entire site removed.
Which would you rather happen - the loss of a few images or the entire archive?
I'm sorry you feel you can no longer contribute, but I hope you understand the situation. It was one where I was damned if I do, but also damned if I don't. My call was the only possible choice.
Although the archive was set up to preserve items vanishing from the internet, itself is not immune to vanishing - any take down order to the server would end it. It is for that reason the each of the archive's folder pages has a button to download that entire folder as a zip file - so people can have an offline copy incase the worst happens.
Also, at any point CBS itself could wade in and order the take down of the archive. They have been doing this quite a lot to fan sites recently. Each CBS take down order can't really be fought by any fan sites as few have the resources to fight it in court.
I have spent a long time working on the archive and any removal is unpleasant. I sought to preserve blueprints and later to create new blueprints to fill in the gaps. The outcome of these removals means that there is new gap that I will have to fill in at some point with a custom blueprint - I had already started work in creating the replacements for the science lab blueprints.
Regarding the link, we already have those blueprints in the Discovery folder http://archive.frogland.co.uk/#15413578784399
Ownership of images ultimately still remains with the original author. If that person makes a request that they be removed, I am legally required to do so. If I don't, they legally can go the server owner and have the entire site removed.
Which would you rather happen - the loss of a few images or the entire archive?
I'm sorry you feel you can no longer contribute, but I hope you understand the situation. It was one where I was damned if I do, but also damned if I don't. My call was the only possible choice.
Although the archive was set up to preserve items vanishing from the internet, itself is not immune to vanishing - any take down order to the server would end it. It is for that reason the each of the archive's folder pages has a button to download that entire folder as a zip file - so people can have an offline copy incase the worst happens.
Also, at any point CBS itself could wade in and order the take down of the archive. They have been doing this quite a lot to fan sites recently. Each CBS take down order can't really be fought by any fan sites as few have the resources to fight it in court.
I have spent a long time working on the archive and any removal is unpleasant. I sought to preserve blueprints and later to create new blueprints to fill in the gaps. The outcome of these removals means that there is new gap that I will have to fill in at some point with a custom blueprint - I had already started work in creating the replacements for the science lab blueprints.
Regarding the link, we already have those blueprints in the Discovery folder http://archive.frogland.co.uk/#15413578784399
RG, I don't know if you saw it, but I've got a science console uploaded to the 3DWarehouse as well. If you want to do your own go ahead of course, but if you decide your time can be better used elsewhere, you know you can use that one too. I used the official blueprints 1:1 so it's good to go!
"Also, at any point CBS itself could wade in and order the take down of the archive. They have been doing this quite a lot to fan sites recently. Each CBS take down order can't really be fought by any fan sites as few have the resources to fight it in court."
This is true however it doesn't make the fans victim.
All the fans have to do is boycott CBS.
That would of course require some leadership....
[Star Trek 4 was all set to bring back Chris Hemsworth as Kirk’s father, and then it fell apart. Hemsworth and Chris Pine, who plays Kirk in the rebooted film franchise, both walked away from the project, putting the future of Star Trek 4in serious doubt. Salary negotiations were cited as the reasoning behind Hemsworth and Pine jumping ship. But now, Hemsworth has revealed another reason: he wasn’t happy with the script.]
What do you think would happen if Fans decidednot to attend the move in general?
This is true however it doesn't make the fans victim.
All the fans have to do is boycott CBS.
That would of course require some leadership....
[Star Trek 4 was all set to bring back Chris Hemsworth as Kirk’s father, and then it fell apart. Hemsworth and Chris Pine, who plays Kirk in the rebooted film franchise, both walked away from the project, putting the future of Star Trek 4in serious doubt. Salary negotiations were cited as the reasoning behind Hemsworth and Pine jumping ship. But now, Hemsworth has revealed another reason: he wasn’t happy with the script.]
What do you think would happen if Fans decidednot to attend the move in general?
There's a vague Copyright issue here. Who is the "owner"? Did CBS/Paramount sell the copyrights? Or were the plans walked off with and sold by someone else? Rick Sternbach sent me a whole pile of set blueprints for DS9 when I was working on a videogame of the show. I didn't own those plans. At best I owned any photos I took of them.
From @Redgeneral's comment I read that Joe would make high quality scans of the blueprints he owns available on his own site someday.
I hope that's the case, because as someone who's a militant for open data and information (there's a reason why I use only FOSS on my work, and why I'm open to giving away schematics or models whenever I'm asked), I'm left a bit uncomfortable by this if it's not the case.
Like @Maurice commented, ownership of the knowledge or exclusivity of its contents are not transferred over with ownership of a blueprint. You're essentially purchasing a piece of paper, if anyone has a claim for them its Paramount, and even that would be debatable given they were sold. Most of the auctions for blueprints actually include on the small print a disclaimer stating that no copyrights are being sold or transferred with the drawings.
For Stage 9 we had access to... shall we say exclusive drawings from several sources who worked on TNG, and we actually had long conversations with those sources regarding copyright and ownership of the images they were sending us (to make sure they wouldn't get into trouble, because even if we wouldn't make the images public, we would use the information on them to create something, thus making it unmistakable to people in the known that we had access to those images). Essentially the gist of it was that there was no way to copyright those reproductions (online images being digital reproductions of the originals). They could be kept private, but if they ever got out publicly there was no way to "recall" them, as no one other than the production company had any right to do so.
Honest question, what sort of "return" could be expected? It's just sharing or not sharing information... It's not fan art you personally researched and created (like some of the blueprints which are sold online). There is no fair use clause for something like this either, nor the excuse of having copyright not over the blueprints but yes over the photograph.
I hope that's the case, because as someone who's a militant for open data and information (there's a reason why I use only FOSS on my work, and why I'm open to giving away schematics or models whenever I'm asked), I'm left a bit uncomfortable by this if it's not the case.
Like @Maurice commented, ownership of the knowledge or exclusivity of its contents are not transferred over with ownership of a blueprint. You're essentially purchasing a piece of paper, if anyone has a claim for them its Paramount, and even that would be debatable given they were sold. Most of the auctions for blueprints actually include on the small print a disclaimer stating that no copyrights are being sold or transferred with the drawings.
For Stage 9 we had access to... shall we say exclusive drawings from several sources who worked on TNG, and we actually had long conversations with those sources regarding copyright and ownership of the images they were sending us (to make sure they wouldn't get into trouble, because even if we wouldn't make the images public, we would use the information on them to create something, thus making it unmistakable to people in the known that we had access to those images). Essentially the gist of it was that there was no way to copyright those reproductions (online images being digital reproductions of the originals). They could be kept private, but if they ever got out publicly there was no way to "recall" them, as no one other than the production company had any right to do so.
Honest question, what sort of "return" could be expected? It's just sharing or not sharing information... It's not fan art you personally researched and created (like some of the blueprints which are sold online). There is no fair use clause for something like this either, nor the excuse of having copyright not over the blueprints but yes over the photograph.
There's no need to delete files from a private repository. I assume you keep whatever you come across regardless of people asking you take down stuff from the public site. A friendly request in private might get people resources that can't be had otherwise.
Where to begin. I started a site years ago for Trek blueprints. On that site, I made a point to tell people to please do not re-upload or share without my permission. Long story short..I stumble on this thread. When I told Redgeneral about my prints..He was very respectful and told me he would credit me on the prints...Long story short again..Redgeneral told me about the private archive..and for two reasons I objected. 1. I was thinking of making my own Archive 2. I do not want my items on private sites.
I may have a compromise that I will outline at the very end of this post.
The way the community has worked together in this thread for the most part is exactly what I wanted on my blueprint site. The issue I had was people wanted blueprints..but no one wanted to share in the cost. Everyone wanted me to buy them and just post for them to the public. Again I respect and admired what Redgeneral did, he bought blueprints and made them public. (Again that was my intention for my trek site.) I spent thousands of dollars on blueprints. The actions by some in this thread is the reason I am hesitant to make anything else public (I hate feeling that way) The response seems to be..who owns copyright..or the images is low resolution..or I do not care what he wants..I going to archive them on my own site (I am not talking about you Redgeneral) Seems like Borgman understood exactly why I did what I did. (To be fair maybe people didn't know that I paid for the prints..That I requested the prints not to be shared when I published the images)
Just to further illustrate why I am hesitant to post stuff.. Someone mention a site on this page..A site like this that is now Private (Which should be a red flag) I also buy and collect original negatives,Backlit artwork and sketches..I had someone high up on the site send me Private messages on the site..Asking if I wanted to sell anything from my collection..(I have sold to him before) I said no. Once I said no..the attitude started. He was Publicly not happy I was not posting stuff...etc.
I had another member a good friend of the first guy..GO CRAZY after I refuse to sell anything to him ( I already promise the item to a friend.) He started posting crazy rants on the another site..A mod had talk to him, He has made multiple fake accounts on facebook, followed me on eBay. Took props that I sold..recast them took designs that I made..and with other members on the site try to pass the design as their own and "Sold" some on Ebay. He then started to send me homophobic messages and to this day is still trying to get stuff from me (Using middle men)
Just a little taste of the stuff I have to deal with..Its the reason I hate private messages, the reason I am hesitant to post more items from the show..etc..etc. It sucks, I see an artist like Donny with great trek interior set models..and I want to help but the response I'm seeing is the reason I hold back.
My compromise..(I am curious to see the response) Redgeneral can send me the images..I will add a watermark to them..and host them on a public site like flicker.. Redgeneral can add a link to the archive. Seems fair to me. I will keep it up until I am done with the scan of my archive.
Update to my archive..I am in the middle of finding a larger format scanner (In color) and start scanning the 572 prints. I have to find the best software for the site to archive the images...etc..etc To be honest, the response that I am seeing..has me worried and thinking twice about making anything else public. If you can't respect the fact that I bought them, posted the images and I want them archive on my site..not sure what to do..I am even thinking twice about the compromise..I hate saying that, I just don't understand..how people can't respect the items bought by someone else. Let me know what you think.
I may have a compromise that I will outline at the very end of this post.
The way the community has worked together in this thread for the most part is exactly what I wanted on my blueprint site. The issue I had was people wanted blueprints..but no one wanted to share in the cost. Everyone wanted me to buy them and just post for them to the public. Again I respect and admired what Redgeneral did, he bought blueprints and made them public. (Again that was my intention for my trek site.) I spent thousands of dollars on blueprints. The actions by some in this thread is the reason I am hesitant to make anything else public (I hate feeling that way) The response seems to be..who owns copyright..or the images is low resolution..or I do not care what he wants..I going to archive them on my own site (I am not talking about you Redgeneral) Seems like Borgman understood exactly why I did what I did. (To be fair maybe people didn't know that I paid for the prints..That I requested the prints not to be shared when I published the images)
Just to further illustrate why I am hesitant to post stuff.. Someone mention a site on this page..A site like this that is now Private (Which should be a red flag) I also buy and collect original negatives,Backlit artwork and sketches..I had someone high up on the site send me Private messages on the site..Asking if I wanted to sell anything from my collection..(I have sold to him before) I said no. Once I said no..the attitude started. He was Publicly not happy I was not posting stuff...etc.
I had another member a good friend of the first guy..GO CRAZY after I refuse to sell anything to him ( I already promise the item to a friend.) He started posting crazy rants on the another site..A mod had talk to him, He has made multiple fake accounts on facebook, followed me on eBay. Took props that I sold..recast them took designs that I made..and with other members on the site try to pass the design as their own and "Sold" some on Ebay. He then started to send me homophobic messages and to this day is still trying to get stuff from me (Using middle men)
Just a little taste of the stuff I have to deal with..Its the reason I hate private messages, the reason I am hesitant to post more items from the show..etc..etc. It sucks, I see an artist like Donny with great trek interior set models..and I want to help but the response I'm seeing is the reason I hold back.
My compromise..(I am curious to see the response) Redgeneral can send me the images..I will add a watermark to them..and host them on a public site like flicker.. Redgeneral can add a link to the archive. Seems fair to me. I will keep it up until I am done with the scan of my archive.
Update to my archive..I am in the middle of finding a larger format scanner (In color) and start scanning the 572 prints. I have to find the best software for the site to archive the images...etc..etc To be honest, the response that I am seeing..has me worried and thinking twice about making anything else public. If you can't respect the fact that I bought them, posted the images and I want them archive on my site..not sure what to do..I am even thinking twice about the compromise..I hate saying that, I just don't understand..how people can't respect the items bought by someone else. Let me know what you think.
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I do think that's a good compromise, and I'm sorry if my message came across as hostile to you. Like I said in it, it wasn't overly clear why they were removed.
However, as someone who makes a living online and once wanted to keep his stuff centralized, a word of advice: Once something gets released, it has been democratized. People are free to copy it and repost it endlessly.
If we personally feel that's fair or nor, it doesn't matter, those are the rules of the game. Individual people can agree to respect that or not, but if you're looking for a guarantee, then there is none.
That's why I agree that watermarking is a good compromise, and is indeed what I started doing to my images when I saw they were being posted elsewhere. It's the only possible way to make sure that at least the source of the images are always included.
Also, do keep in mind that some of us:
- Are too young to have been able to participate in most of these auctions
- Are from places where we can't even access Ebay without a VPN, and even once we do, we can't bring the stuff into our countries.
So, yeah, it's not a level playing field. If you assume everyone had the same chance as you did, then it's easy to see people as prying on your investment and good will.
However, as someone who makes a living online and once wanted to keep his stuff centralized, a word of advice: Once something gets released, it has been democratized. People are free to copy it and repost it endlessly.
If we personally feel that's fair or nor, it doesn't matter, those are the rules of the game. Individual people can agree to respect that or not, but if you're looking for a guarantee, then there is none.
That's why I agree that watermarking is a good compromise, and is indeed what I started doing to my images when I saw they were being posted elsewhere. It's the only possible way to make sure that at least the source of the images are always included.
Also, do keep in mind that some of us:
- Are too young to have been able to participate in most of these auctions
- Are from places where we can't even access Ebay without a VPN, and even once we do, we can't bring the stuff into our countries.
So, yeah, it's not a level playing field. If you assume everyone had the same chance as you did, then it's easy to see people as prying on your investment and good will.
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A Quick reply to Rekkert, I just got back from moving all my equipment into my own shop. (Very Happy) I will do a detailed reply to your post later today or Monday (after work.) I still have to unpack and setup everything today.
Rekkert. please do not apologize, I did not take yours or anyones reply as hostile. I can understand the frustration by some. I love the work you do, love seeing the Science lab above as a 3D..etc I still waiting to see what others have to say about the compromise.
Just to take a peek of what I have been working on and wanted to have on the new blueprint site. A biobed based on John Eaves sketches from Generations. I am using my Voyager biobed blueprints as reference for the size. Also converting the blueprints of the Enterprise-D Engineering workstation. Not just a remake from the blueprints, but a model that has all the framing and list of materials to build a full scale replica...
Also just to give everyone an idea on prices for a large format scanner. Its still cheaper then having all the prints scan at the different sizes that I want. Again Rekkert, a more detailed reply later today or Monday.
Rekkert. please do not apologize, I did not take yours or anyones reply as hostile. I can understand the frustration by some. I love the work you do, love seeing the Science lab above as a 3D..etc I still waiting to see what others have to say about the compromise.
Just to take a peek of what I have been working on and wanted to have on the new blueprint site. A biobed based on John Eaves sketches from Generations. I am using my Voyager biobed blueprints as reference for the size. Also converting the blueprints of the Enterprise-D Engineering workstation. Not just a remake from the blueprints, but a model that has all the framing and list of materials to build a full scale replica...
Also just to give everyone an idea on prices for a large format scanner. Its still cheaper then having all the prints scan at the different sizes that I want. Again Rekkert, a more detailed reply later today or Monday.
Ooh, those look nice. I look forward to what you're planning there.
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