This was also one of my specific complaints aobout #1 -- I kept thinking, "People just don't sound this way in the TOS era" -- but it is much, much improved in #3.
Seekers #1 -- What a disappointment!
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This was also one of my specific complaints aobout #1 -- I kept thinking, "People just don't sound this way in the TOS era" -- but it is much, much improved in #3.
The DS9 Tech Manual pegs the Defiant's crew complement as 40 people, which is about 3 times the Sagittarius complement. So it's a significantly larger ship. The Sagittarius is basically one step up from a runabout.
I don't think the size of the ship has that much to do with the number of people on it....Yeah, I get it 40 people have a hard time running a Connie on a full time basis...but I think the Defiant had a shuttle bay, a bigger science lab, a mess hall etc.
I think if the Archer class had about 40 person crew -- (like the Defiant) I would find it more believe-able.
In regards to Chris, yeah, I sorta agree with you that the Archer class is a step up from a Run About, I look it at it as the Archer is one class down from the Defiant.
I suppose we are splittin' hairs tho'
I think if the Archer class had about 40 person crew -- (like the Defiant) I would find it more believe-able.
In regards to Chris, yeah, I sorta agree with you that the Archer class is a step up from a Run About, I look it at it as the Archer is one class down from the Defiant.
I suppose we are splittin' hairs tho'
...How fast is an Archer anyhow? Small craft in onscreen Trek haven't been particularly speedy: shuttles haven't clocked anything above warp four, and it was once a plot point that a runabout couldn't top warp five. Yet the Vanguard adventures weren't limited to runabout-like swift transit from star to star, but actually involved or implied a few chases against big ships as well.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Fast. The writers' bible says warp 9.4 on the TNG scale, which is warp 12 and change on the TOS scale, or about 1800c. That's "top cruising speed," so one can make almost five lightyears a day. Not bad.
So there might not actually be that much travel-related downtime. On the other hand, depending how long the average survey takes, that could mean a better work/life balance, something like what was shown at the beginning of "Long Shot." A couple days of travel, where the operational crew is busy and the science crew can relax, then a couple days landed putting bugs in jars, where the scientists can keep busy and the other half can take some time off, and then it's back to space and on to the next planet. They could also go slower to conserve fuel and stretch the time between surveys for all sorts of reasons.
In either case, I think the better comparison might be a submarine crew than a ground patrol. Subs go out for three to six months at a time, and might only have a couple of port stops during that time. Granted, submarines have crews ten times as large as the Sagittarius, but I'm going to guess it's more spacious looked at on a per-person basis. In either case, the crew of the Sagittarius seem to have a lot more opportunities to stretch their legs during their regular duties.
While I was googling for this post, I found this page on the NR-1 research sub which does seem comparable to an Archer-class ship. It's got a ten-to-fifteen person crew and could stay out for as long as a month (theoretically, though two weeks seems more reasonable), had a fraction of the space of the ship we're talking about, and had no crew facilities to speak of.
I can't remember if it was "Long Shot" or the writers' guide or what, but somewhere it was mentioned that you only got on an Archer-class ship if the lifestyle appealed to you and you volunteered. With only about a dozen of them in the fleet (at least, based on the list of names in the writers' notes), that's only a hundred and seventy or so people out of all the Starfleet. You couldn't half-fill one Constitution-class with every misfit and weirdo who wanted the challenge of living on an Archer.
Warp 9.4 (in the TNG scale, whatever the TOS equivalent is) according to David Mack; an Archer class was specifically designed to go "very far, very fast, and not be noticed". It's stripped to the metal specifically for the purpose of being as fast as can be possible, with little in the way of anything but a big engine.
Here's Mack's post on the specs of the Archer-class.
Here's Mack's post on the specs of the Archer-class.
Isn't there also the requirement that the crewmembers have more than one specialty? Like, Sonak is the tactical officer (for as much as a ship that size needs one), but he's also the lead field scout and as a medical doctor can fill in if Babitz is incapacitated or busy with other casualties?
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to Starri, you are right, they do "double-up" on positions. My beef is say there is a landing party (like in Book #1), how the ship can still function with 24 hr operations. Yeah, I get it with automation, minimal staffing, but if you have a landing party taking away bodies for ship duty and you are in hostile territory/near hostile territory/or the making first contact, I'd hate to be down to minimal staffing.
Yeah, like David CGC says, it like a submarine but a sub has a bunch more people. Yep, I'm sure the sub may be a bit more cramped (but modern ones aren't so bad).
Guess I wouldn't mind giving up some "bunk space" if I have another "able body" to help out so you are not stuck on 12 hour shifts or more.
I don't have the book handy, but say the Terrell is in charge on day-shift, who is in charge at night? What if that person is now on a landing party duty, who takes over?
Again, I'm a broken record, but I think like that needs about 40 people to run smoothly, but I will suspend belief about the crew size, and onwards to book #2.
Yeah, like David CGC says, it like a submarine but a sub has a bunch more people. Yep, I'm sure the sub may be a bit more cramped (but modern ones aren't so bad).
Guess I wouldn't mind giving up some "bunk space" if I have another "able body" to help out so you are not stuck on 12 hour shifts or more.
I don't have the book handy, but say the Terrell is in charge on day-shift, who is in charge at night? What if that person is now on a landing party duty, who takes over?
Again, I'm a broken record, but I think like that needs about 40 people to run smoothly, but I will suspend belief about the crew size, and onwards to book #2.
So you want more characters, but David Mack was supposedly phoning in his work on the cast we saw featured?
Didn't ST III and IV show us a tiny Klingon ship that was extremely capable and only had "About a dozen officers and men..."?
In your first post you said:
So you'd have been satisfied if the crew complement was said to have been bigger, but only a few got speaking parts in each volume?
Looking at the crew roster as it was in Vanguard there was:
Commanding Officer
First Officer
Second Officer
Helm/Nav Officer
Science Officer
Chief Medical Officer
Medical Technician
Chief Engineer
Engineer
Engineer
Engineer
Chief Field Scout
Field Scout
Field Scout
During emergency situations or when on a mission (eg planetary survey, first contact, etc) then it'd be all hands on deck: the bridge fully manned (CO in charge, XO at weapons, SO at comm, etc), lab and sickbay staffed, equipment checked, hatches battened down, and so forth.
For normal day-to-day travel, scans and what not then the crew could easily be broken down to something like:
Alpha Shift: CO, Helm/Nav, Medical Technician, Chief Engineer, Field Scout
Beta Shift: XO, Science Officer, Engineer, Engineer, Chief Field Scout
Gamma Shift: Second Officer, Chief Medical Officer, Engineer, Field Scout
When the Helm Officer isn't on the bridge a Field Scout could sit there, or the First/Second Officer, likewise for when the Science Officer is in their bunk, whilst the Medtech could help with cargo inventory or cataloguing samples in the lab. It would depend on what was needing done each day and who had the necessary skills/experience to cover it, or who else could be trained up for these little jobs.
On a ship the size of the Archer-Class with so few crew then flexibility would be the key requirement--I suspect crew from long-lived races, who'd had the chance to train in multiple fields, would be in high demand for such ships.
That's just how I see it anyway.
Commanding Officer
First Officer
Second Officer
Helm/Nav Officer
Science Officer
Chief Medical Officer
Medical Technician
Chief Engineer
Engineer
Engineer
Engineer
Chief Field Scout
Field Scout
Field Scout
During emergency situations or when on a mission (eg planetary survey, first contact, etc) then it'd be all hands on deck: the bridge fully manned (CO in charge, XO at weapons, SO at comm, etc), lab and sickbay staffed, equipment checked, hatches battened down, and so forth.
For normal day-to-day travel, scans and what not then the crew could easily be broken down to something like:
Alpha Shift: CO, Helm/Nav, Medical Technician, Chief Engineer, Field Scout
Beta Shift: XO, Science Officer, Engineer, Engineer, Chief Field Scout
Gamma Shift: Second Officer, Chief Medical Officer, Engineer, Field Scout
When the Helm Officer isn't on the bridge a Field Scout could sit there, or the First/Second Officer, likewise for when the Science Officer is in their bunk, whilst the Medtech could help with cargo inventory or cataloguing samples in the lab. It would depend on what was needing done each day and who had the necessary skills/experience to cover it, or who else could be trained up for these little jobs.
On a ship the size of the Archer-Class with so few crew then flexibility would be the key requirement--I suspect crew from long-lived races, who'd had the chance to train in multiple fields, would be in high demand for such ships.
That's just how I see it anyway.
In other words, the crew is "Jack o' all Trades or Master of None"....or everyone is specialized in everything.
There isn't enough hours in a day to get all the duties done. I get how the med tech can be saddled with cargo inventory. 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week a suck. If they are out for 2 weeks, a month at best, maybe so. Espcially if you are on a small ship in unchartered territory, barely unchartered, hostile territory, or "neutral territory" who wants a field scout at the helm because the primary helm dude is on the landing party, and the back up helm dude is working the dayshift, so we got the 3rd String Quarterback at the helm cuz the bad guys decided to gets antsy on the night shift.
The science officer is also on the landing party, the back-up science guy spent the shift doing science duties and inventories of stembolts cuz the logistics guy is on the landing party and now on night shift we need the science guy on the bridge. (The assumption is the helm dude, science dude, medical dude and Logistics guy are the landing party)
Like in football (not soccer, but football), having the 3rd String Quarterback playing is NEVER a good thing. If a team is down by 5 points and doing the two-minute drill, last thing you want is the 3rd String QB.
There isn't enough hours in a day to get all the duties done. I get how the med tech can be saddled with cargo inventory. 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week a suck. If they are out for 2 weeks, a month at best, maybe so. Espcially if you are on a small ship in unchartered territory, barely unchartered, hostile territory, or "neutral territory" who wants a field scout at the helm because the primary helm dude is on the landing party, and the back up helm dude is working the dayshift, so we got the 3rd String Quarterback at the helm cuz the bad guys decided to gets antsy on the night shift.
The science officer is also on the landing party, the back-up science guy spent the shift doing science duties and inventories of stembolts cuz the logistics guy is on the landing party and now on night shift we need the science guy on the bridge. (The assumption is the helm dude, science dude, medical dude and Logistics guy are the landing party)
Like in football (not soccer, but football), having the 3rd String Quarterback playing is NEVER a good thing. If a team is down by 5 points and doing the two-minute drill, last thing you want is the 3rd String QB.
They are out for two weeks, a month at best, though. That's explicit. They aren't set up for long-term missions, but for shooting out, getting data, and shooting back. Even beyond the logistics issues you've pointed out, they don't have the storage for supplies for long-term missions either.
Not exactly, though fairly true to a degree. In the Bible for Vanguard it does give a quick description of what specialties each of the crew has, which are a combination of ship and mission operations, then whilst onboard they also get trained up to cover other things as well (I'm sure the first time we're onboard the Sagittarius the science officer was getting trained on using the transporter).
Most Starfleet ships operate a three shift rotation, so that'd be eight hours working, six to eight sleeping and the rest of the time for R&R, fitness, or even helping out other shifts if needed. (I'm sure I read somewhere that submarines don't operate to a 24 hour day, but rather 20 hours, perhaps Archer's do the same sort of thing, shorter days and shift patterns, to optimise crew efficiency)
Going by that logic, who wants the First or Second Officers commanding the ship instead of the Captain? Whoever would be covering a duty station would be trained and competent in its operation, to ensure the ship was in safe hands (look at the TNG Movies where Troi has to take the conn, granted both times the ship crashed [one because of an inescapable shock wave and the other was by order] but she was sufficiently trained in order to cover for a short period).
Sounds like an odd assortment for a landing party, lol. In this case, the inventory of supplies could wait until the completion of the mission (though would probably be done beforehand, and most likely only when they were due to put in at a starbase--it wouldn't be the kind of job that would have to be done daily or even weekly). Meanwhile the ship's assigned Science Officer is on the landing party, the Second Officer with a masters in astrophysics can watch over the sensors from the science console, and the Field Scout who is a certified medic can cover in sickbay if required.
I don't see the problem that you have with how the crew works. On larger vessels they'd all have a single duty to see to, but on such small ships they have to pull double (or perhaps even triple) duties depending on what the ship's assignment was at the time. Spock managed to cover the demands of First and Chief Science Officer without any difficulty, likewise so to did Dax on the Defiant as both Science and Conn Officer.
Bry, Nathan's assessment is based on his actual personal experience on a naval vessel and how crewing a ship actually works. But also he's already said a bunch of times that he can suspend his disbelief just fine for Archer-class ships in the Seekers series, it was just one single part of his original view of the book. 
Bry, yep Submarines do operate differently, but they have more crew to work more flexible shifts....I doubt you could get 3 shifts on an Archer Class. I worked 10 months doing 12 hour shifts...on Sundays, we called it "Low Battle Rhythm Sunday" were we truly were at a skeleton crew where we could get our laundry done, sleep an extra hour or two, read a book. Of course, we never told the Taliban that we screwed off on Sundays, but every once in awhile we'd get hit on a Sunday and we had a full day of work.
The above example about the Logistics Guy, Helmsman Dude, and Sci dude on an away mission just an example.
Idran is right. Crew Complement is on the same lines as LaForge saying, "If I run a inverted tachyon pulse through the deflector dish, I could create a blah blah blah." OK LaForge, if you say so......
Plus, let's say LT Bry Sinclair is the Helmsman and Science officer, and back-up medic. LT Sinclair gets re-assigned to a Connie. Now, try find an LT position that is a Helmsan, Sci Officer and Medic, PLUS has the mental/physical toughness to be on a Archer style ship. Tough to do. It tough to create the right balance. Plus, I don't think the Archer class exactly the most coveted ship for assignments -- especially if the minimum requirement is you have to have qualified in TWO specialties, perhaps a third. AND, some Federation members would not be eligible. I doubt Watergirl (from Titan) could serve on an Archer, or the species that is 2 feet tall and blue (again from Titan), or could a Nasat (the pillbugs from SCE fit on an Archer since it is very cramped.
Just wish when the Archer Class Bible was created, it made it a crew of 40. The other 30 people can just be nameless or limited character lines.
Idran, you say they are out for 2 weeks, a month best. If they only have a range of 2 weeks -- even at top warp, not much they can explore since the ship is "tethered" to the space station as it can only has "2 weeks worth of gas/supplies" as it needs 2 weeks to get back, and probably less as that would be cutting is close.
The above example about the Logistics Guy, Helmsman Dude, and Sci dude on an away mission just an example.
Idran is right. Crew Complement is on the same lines as LaForge saying, "If I run a inverted tachyon pulse through the deflector dish, I could create a blah blah blah." OK LaForge, if you say so......
Plus, let's say LT Bry Sinclair is the Helmsman and Science officer, and back-up medic. LT Sinclair gets re-assigned to a Connie. Now, try find an LT position that is a Helmsan, Sci Officer and Medic, PLUS has the mental/physical toughness to be on a Archer style ship. Tough to do. It tough to create the right balance. Plus, I don't think the Archer class exactly the most coveted ship for assignments -- especially if the minimum requirement is you have to have qualified in TWO specialties, perhaps a third. AND, some Federation members would not be eligible. I doubt Watergirl (from Titan) could serve on an Archer, or the species that is 2 feet tall and blue (again from Titan), or could a Nasat (the pillbugs from SCE fit on an Archer since it is very cramped.
Just wish when the Archer Class Bible was created, it made it a crew of 40. The other 30 people can just be nameless or limited character lines.
Idran, you say they are out for 2 weeks, a month best. If they only have a range of 2 weeks -- even at top warp, not much they can explore since the ship is "tethered" to the space station as it can only has "2 weeks worth of gas/supplies" as it needs 2 weeks to get back, and probably less as that would be cutting is close.
