Weak. You have no proof they weren't punished. And I'll gladly remind of you Captain Picard getting in a drunken bar fight as a cadet and getting command of the Enterprise. Next?
What does that have to do with anything?
Nope, not really. Sorry.
Secret Deleted Scene
- Thread starter skinofevil
- Start date
Weak. You have no proof they weren't punished. And I'll gladly remind of you Captain Picard getting in a drunken bar fight as a cadet and getting command of the Enterprise. Next?
What does that have to do with anything?
Nope, not really. Sorry.
Excellent. This is pretty much where much of society fancies itself to be today. We abhor racism and desire to eliminate the pain and suffering of the vulnerable. Regardless of the politics of healthcare you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks poor useless drug addicts should be allowed to die in the street. Much of what we take for granted as how an enlightened society should be didn't exist in other centuries to the same extent. Life was ruled by class and hierarchy. People were owned. Now advance these ideas a few hundred years into the future and perhaps we actually will be a better society with a higher standard by then. However we will still be people and personal issues will still leave us jealous, angry etc.. it's just these emotions are no longer enacted by governments on a grand scale.
Well there you go. We are still the same at heart but the standards of society can evolve.. and in the end each individual must make a choice.
I would like to have seen that! Coolness!
Also, shade of the Batman
maybe that's why it wasn't used.....
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I-Am-Zim
Captain
I'll concede a modicum of weakness on these points. I had to think fast and I haven't seen the movie in quite a while.
However, on this one, YEP, REALLY, SORRY. That would never happen in the real world. Or any other world for that matter. No real military would be allowed to banish someone like that. Yeah, I know, this ain't the real world, it's Star Trek XI. But that is just stoopid.
He was put in charge of a lonely ol' Starfleet outpost. He wasn't in prison, he wasn't mistreated, and he was given food rations. Boo hoo. Scotty's complaints were based on a luxury issue. This does happen in the real world and in no way constitutes some silly commentary on "Society."
RobertScorpio
Pariah
^^ Best post in this thread..IMO.
Roddenberry, the 60s version, had the right formula, once he figured it out. FUN FUN FUN along with BOOBS BOOBS and more BOOBS. And, somewhere in there, a good story with a message here and there.
The 70s Roddenberry? He lost his way, and thankfully, IMO, Phase Two never got made because, again IMO, the stories were boring. TMP, though it had some flashes of fun, was just bogged down, and the fun aspect was totally wasted.
Rob
RobertScorpio
Pariah
^^ Best post in this thread..
Roddenberry, the 60s version, had the right formula, once he figured it out. FUN FUN FUN along with some sexy girls here and there. And, somewhere in there, a good story with a message here and there as well.
The 70s Roddenberry? He lost his way, and thankfully, IMO, Phase Two never got made because, again IMO, the stories were boring. TMP, though it had some flashes of fun, was just bogged down, and the fun aspect was totally wasted.
Rob
So good, you had to reply to it twice?
Meh, if Starfleet ever stuck close to what would happen in a "real military," it was out of story convenience more than it was anything else. Besides, "Reassigned to Antarctica" is a very familiar trope in fiction, both written and on the big and little screens, and plausible because it has happened in "real military" organizations; if you're going to take issue with it here, you'll also have to take issue with it in a lot of other stories, some pretty highly-regarded. There's really no problem with seeing this movie's Delta Vega as Starfleet's galactic analogue to Bumfuck, Egypt - that ultimate "nowhere and way too much time to think about it" posting for the sole transgression of seriously displeasing a superior officer.
This objection isn't any stronger than your other two.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
So good, you had to reply to it twice?
Meh, if Starfleet ever stuck close to what would happen in a "real military," it was out of story convenience more than it was anything else. Besides, "Reassigned to Antarctica" is a very familiar trope in fiction, both written and on the big and little screens, and plausible because it has happened in "real military" organizations; if you're going to take issue with it here, you'll also have to take issue with it in a lot of other stories, some pretty highly-regarded. There's really no problem with seeing this movie's Delta Vega as Starfleet's galactic analogue to Bumfuck, Egypt - that ultimate "nowhere and way too much time to think about it" posting for the sole transgression of seriously displeasing a superior officer.
This objection isn't any stronger than your other two.
You would be amazed at how much went unpunished in the military. I am not in active service anymore, but I work with the military quite often. These days, and I think for good reasons overall, most of the stuff that went on when I came in wouldn't be tolerated today, and it isn't. It is a sign of the times.
In fact, even though we are wrapped up in two wars, the military will bounce you out now for the slightest reasons. Mainly because they are starting to slowly but surely downsize their numbers. The Navy Base I do much of my work on requires so much of these young people, in terms of quals and colateral training, that if they don't do it or keep up..they're out. So, getting into fights in today's military can get you tossed out. Not sure if that is good, or bad, but its the way it is and everyone knows.
The worst trouble I got in, and it was years ago, was driving onto base, drunk, and driving over the guard's foot with my car. I got lippy and ended up in restriction for about a month. Later, after getting into a fight, nothing happened..go figure.
It use to be when you got shore duty, things were not as complicated as sea duty. Not so now. If you want to succeed , you have to keep up, do online college, to show your chain of command that you have an ambition to improve yourself and not just stay put where you are.
The bar fight scene in TREK XI may have seemed extreme, and it was, especially since Kirk wasn't even in the military and those who beat him up were. But I have seen far worse and the discipline was light, if at all.
Rob
So good, you had to reply to it twice?
Meh, if Starfleet ever stuck close to what would happen in a "real military," it was out of story convenience more than it was anything else. Besides, "Reassigned to Antarctica" is a very familiar trope in fiction, both written and on the big and little screens, and plausible because it has happened in "real military" organizations; if you're going to take issue with it here, you'll also have to take issue with it in a lot of other stories, some pretty highly-regarded. There's really no problem with seeing this movie's Delta Vega as Starfleet's galactic analogue to Bumfuck, Egypt - that ultimate "nowhere and way too much time to think about it" posting for the sole transgression of seriously displeasing a superior officer.
This objection isn't any stronger than your other two.
You would be amazed at how much went unpunished in the military. I am not in active service anymore, but I work with the military quite often. These days, and I think for good reasons overall, most of the stuff that went on when I came in wouldn't be tolerated today, and it isn't. It is a sign of the times.
In fact, even though we are wrapped up in two wars, the military will bounce you out now for the slightest reasons. Mainly because they are starting to slowly but surely downsize their numbers. The Navy Base I do much of my work on requires so much of these young people, in terms of quals and colateral training, that if they don't do it or keep up..they're out. So, getting into fights in today's military can get you tossed out. Not sure if that is good, or bad, but its the way it is and everyone knows.
The worst trouble I got in, and it was years ago, was driving onto base, drunk, and driving over the guard's foot with my car. I got lippy and ended up in restriction for about a month. Later, after getting into a fight, nothing happened..go figure.
It use to be when you got shore duty, things were not as complicated as sea duty. Not so now. If you want to succeed , you have to keep up, do online college, to show your chain of command that you have an ambition to improve yourself and not just stay put where you are.
The bar fight scene in TREK XI may have seemed extreme, and it was, especially since Kirk wasn't even in the military and those who beat him up were. But I have seen far worse and the discipline was light, if at all.
Rob
Great replies.
Also if we are going to start holding Star Trek up to a "real military," then we are going to see some real issues with Starfleet.
True - when this is the kind of "criticism" that's leveled at it, the movie looks pretty good.
Char Aznable
Lieutenant Commander
I believe he's referring to the username of the thread-starter. There's a rather colorful history attached to that name at TrekBBS, but that was a very long time ago and there's no reason at all why most people posting today would or should be expected to know about that.
Sigh.
Once again: Kruge was actively trying to kill Kirk when Kirk said this--and Kirk had twice offered Kruge a truce, the second time when Kruge was helpless and Kirk could have walked away. Nero, by contrast, was apparently powerless.
There is a difference and it's a pretty big one.
RobertScorpio
Pariah
Why do people not 'get' that. And, in Khan, when Kirk shoots that ceti-eel, some people think Kirk did a bad thing. That's what I liked about kirk. Something does this to one of his crew, and he kills it.
Rob
I believe he's referring to the username of the thread-starter. There's a rather colorful history attached to that name at TrekBBS, but that was a very long time ago and there's no reason at all why most people posting today would or should be expected to know about that.
This
I will say this: Nero had killed billions of people, including Amanda and George. No way did I want to see him taken into custody. Still, the Kruge scene gives us the perfect fig leaf for our (okay, my) lust for vengeance: why not have the Narada lock tractor beams or, this being Trek XI, grappling chains on the Enterprise. Then it really would have been an "I have had enough of you!" moment. As it's played, Kirk almost loses the Enterprise because he stopped to unload on a seemingly unarmed opponent and then wait around for a crucial couple of seconds to gloat. Say what you will about Nero being a proven threat who needed to be neutralized, it still comes off as cold-blooded and reckless. How many kegs--I mean, warp cores--did they have to jettison to break free?
I think they would have needed to break free regardless, the Narada was already being swallowed up by the red matter black hole, so Enterprise was likely caught in its wake, just no one had tried to go to warp until after Nero got fully consumed by it.
Kirk and friends would have been next.
Yes, this bothered me quite a bit. It was unnecessarily bloodthirsty, particularly since Spock signed off on it. Sure, Nero killed his mother but Vulcans are pacifists - while that doesn't mean they never use violence, it does make this kind of revenge killing seem more inappropriate... almost like Vulcans from Enterprise! Actually, koon-tut-kali-fee or whatever was pretty poor too: Death - by snoo snoo!
I'm first in line to argue that Han Solo should get to shoot first - because he's pirate scum and it's in character. Federation crew less so. I agree that there should have been tweaks to the scipt - an acknowledgment that Nero's ship might survive or a tractor beam as suggested. Or an attempt to beam off Narada's crew that failed due to gravitational forces or something...
