Season TWO OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread
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Another observation from season 2:
In Pen Pals, when the Enterprise launches the torpedoes at the planet, the ship's NCC-1701-D registry has been removed from the saucer. As it's a flipped shot, the registry would have been flipped too. Did they Photoshop it out in order to put it back in the correct orientation, but forget to put it back on?
In Pen Pals, when the Enterprise launches the torpedoes at the planet, the ship's NCC-1701-D registry has been removed from the saucer. As it's a flipped shot, the registry would have been flipped too. Did they Photoshop it out in order to put it back in the correct orientation, but forget to put it back on?
In 10 years, computers do the job automatically.
The art department just designs the standing sets as virtual sets in the computer, then you appoint the objects of the 2D film to the 3D objects in the virtual set and the computer calculates the rest for you (position of the camera, texturing the 3D objects and "refilming" it). At a certain point the computer is even automatically able to interpet the objects on the 2D film and apply them to the according 3D objects in the virtual set. BLAMMoOoOO: A 3D conversion in 12h done and ready to ship out! MUHARRHARRR!!! 
In 10 years, computers do the job automatically.
... Yeah. Not going to happen. Even with the BEST of advancements of the technology it'll end up being a patchwork job. And here we have people complaining about part of a view screen intruding on a wall by a few pixels.
I know. I mean, we will never going to see TNG in HD anyways. I mean, they would have to redo all the special effects again, since it was edited on video! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU F*CKING GEEK IDI*T! NOT! GOING! TO! HAPPEN!
Neva eva TNG in HD. Move along! Nothing to see here! Muharrharr!
I know. I mean, we will never going to see TNG in HD anyways. I mean, they would have to redo all the special effects again, since it was edited on video! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU F*CKING GEEK IDI*T! NOT! GOING! TO! HAPPEN!
There is a GIGANTIC difference between what they have to do to get the episodes into HD and what they'd have to do to get the episodes into "3D."
To make a proper 3D movie there needs to be two cameras right next to one another recording the action. One for the left eye, one for the right eye. Various techniques are then used to transmit the camera's information to the appropriate eye to create a 3D effect.
TNG was not filmed with this technique, like all TV shows and most movies it was filmed with a single camera for the shot. (Obviously most cameras at once for different angles of a shot, but not a 3D camera set-up.)
So how are non-filmed-in-3D movies released in 3D? (Like Titanic and many movies that came out following Avatar.) By essentially faking it. You load the film into a computer, cut out various elements and "layer" them in a shot and with filters and other techniques this creates a 3D-like effect through the 3D glasses. But there's a problem.
IT'S NOT TRULY 3D! Because there's no way of knowing what information the other eye is supposed to have! You're essentially playing with Colorforms on someone's glasses. And even when a LOT of time and money is spent doing this (as was the case with a small handfull of recent 3D releases) the results aren't great, nor are they true 3D.
People said TNG wouldn't be made in HD because we realized the level of work that have to go into it, but CBS/Paramount proved us wrong and are doing it and, surprise, it's taking a LOT of work to do it and there's been mistakes and quality issues along the way. Even problems when it comes to recovering footage.
Converting a 2D picture into a 3D one is not, by any means, an easy or cheap one. And when it's done it doesn't have the greatest of results. To do it best takes a LOT of time and money, which if we use this BD project as a guide is something they're slightly stingy with on even redoing effects with perfection.
There'd also be no benefit to making the show 3D since there's no way to give a true 3D view since the show wasn't FILMED in 3D!
Exactly. There'd also be 0 benefit in doing it.
So I'm such of two minds with this set. On the one hand, I'm really appreciating the advancement in story telling and characterization over season one. Season two has always held some of my favorite episodes, and the quality and mood are greatly enhanced here.
On the other hand, the FX become a poor distraction raising questions of what might have been. I am thoroughly UNIMPRESSED with the opening shot of The Child. I want to love it. It is 'clearer', it is HD, but it looks worse than the SD composite. Yes, I did throw in the DVD and watch them back to back and I gotta say the magic is gone on the bd. So many lost opportunities, especially with shots CBS HAD ALREADY DONE!
Step one for HTV should have been to screen season one and strive to match it, not only in quality but in tone. This is a series, the Ent is a character and she should be presented consistently. I'm not a raving fan looking to nitpick, but when nearly every FX shot pulls you out of the story (DNR issues included) there is a problem.
To compare: TOS original FX in HD recreated all the beauty and all the faults but left things like contrast alone, so that show is actually watchable in the sense of 'what we've always seen, but cleaner.' Don't get me started on the CGI for that series as most of the ship shots are cheap and forgettable. TNG season 2 not only cleaned up the original compositing, but also reduced contrast, flattened the image and made it a poorer viewing experience than the original IMO. I am actually considering keeping my S2 DVDs just to hold onto a glimpse of that original magic.
Also, the much vaunted matte from Q, Who? has the hugely distracting transparent Worf problem, and the tractor beam pulling out the hull section DOES NOT properly envelop the entire model chunk (both pointed out above)
Haven't seen this mentioned, but in Samaritan Snare, the Angel One matte painting is needlessly altered. What happened to preserving the original look of the show? The additions are clunky and only serve to distract. More effort should have gone into upgrading the planet exteriors (the most successful part of the TOS remastering and very well done in TNG S1) Who decided THIS matte needed to be altered so ham-fistedly?!?
One really nice touch was adding reflections of the energy being from The Child onto windows and such. Small compensation for so many poor choices and outright mistakes.
Rant over.
Moving forward, things I would love to see on future sets:
- Consistent quality Whether CBS Digital is doing the work themselves OR farming it out, it's ultimately their responsibility to insist upon and maintain quality.
- More deleted scenes. I'm usually not one for deleted scenes (especially in movies) but many of the cuts from TNG were for time, and no other reason, so bring 'em on! Too bad the scenes from Up the Long Ladder weren't reproduced in HD (what source were they drawn from? An earlier cut? If a similar situation to the VHS of Measure of a Man, then would have loved to see an integrated cut with seemless branching) While I really do like the fencing and party scenes from MoaM, I feel they would have worked better as isolated cut scenes, as integrating them also involved the whole episode being recut at a padded, slower pace. The poker game in particular suffers in the extended cut IMO.
-Isolated score soundtrack. As brought up in a Trekcore interview, this seems like a relatively easy and fun special feature. Let's do it before the music becomes forgettable.
-Commentary tracks. More writers and directors please! All respect to Dan Curry, going on about the FX just isn't that interesting for this show. The writing's where it's at. I loved Bowman's tales of working with Delancey as well.
-Two parters on the same disc. Many mid season 2 parters ended up split across 2 discs on the DVD sets. With the flexibility offered by increased storage space, PLEASE organize the episodes and special features so that 2 parters can be watched back to back without switching discs. (would including the S3 cliffhanger at the start of S4 be too much to ask? Probably.
-STOP MAKING ME CHOOSE ENGLISH EVERY TIME I LOAD A DISC! As others have mentioned, blu ray players should be able to remember choices made in the past when replaying a disc. Is this how CBS handles every one of their bd releases? It's rather annoying and obnoxious. Sometimes I'll load a disc and walk away (knowing there's so much unskippable fluff at the head of the disc anyway) then I'll return to the room and remember, 'oh, crap, I forgot to choose ENGLISH so now I have more nonsense to wait through.' I understand it's an international product, but there has to be a better way.
-Gag reels. Keep em coming. The actors' joy of working on this show is really brought out at these moments along with the round table discussions... Great to see these people interacting with each other and to see that they really liked what they were doing, even if some of the lines were unsayable at times.
OK, tldr, I know. I love this show, and I really hoped the blu rays would elevate S2 in the same way they did S1. Everyone was so excited and impressed by the overall effect of S1 that those who have long dismissed it really started to relish the richness and newness of what has always been there. Too bad the approach to S2 has undermined so much of that newly rediscovered good will.
On the other hand, the FX become a poor distraction raising questions of what might have been. I am thoroughly UNIMPRESSED with the opening shot of The Child. I want to love it. It is 'clearer', it is HD, but it looks worse than the SD composite. Yes, I did throw in the DVD and watch them back to back and I gotta say the magic is gone on the bd. So many lost opportunities, especially with shots CBS HAD ALREADY DONE!
Step one for HTV should have been to screen season one and strive to match it, not only in quality but in tone. This is a series, the Ent is a character and she should be presented consistently. I'm not a raving fan looking to nitpick, but when nearly every FX shot pulls you out of the story (DNR issues included) there is a problem.
To compare: TOS original FX in HD recreated all the beauty and all the faults but left things like contrast alone, so that show is actually watchable in the sense of 'what we've always seen, but cleaner.' Don't get me started on the CGI for that series as most of the ship shots are cheap and forgettable. TNG season 2 not only cleaned up the original compositing, but also reduced contrast, flattened the image and made it a poorer viewing experience than the original IMO. I am actually considering keeping my S2 DVDs just to hold onto a glimpse of that original magic.
Also, the much vaunted matte from Q, Who? has the hugely distracting transparent Worf problem, and the tractor beam pulling out the hull section DOES NOT properly envelop the entire model chunk (both pointed out above)
Haven't seen this mentioned, but in Samaritan Snare, the Angel One matte painting is needlessly altered. What happened to preserving the original look of the show? The additions are clunky and only serve to distract. More effort should have gone into upgrading the planet exteriors (the most successful part of the TOS remastering and very well done in TNG S1) Who decided THIS matte needed to be altered so ham-fistedly?!?
One really nice touch was adding reflections of the energy being from The Child onto windows and such. Small compensation for so many poor choices and outright mistakes.
Rant over.
Moving forward, things I would love to see on future sets:
- Consistent quality Whether CBS Digital is doing the work themselves OR farming it out, it's ultimately their responsibility to insist upon and maintain quality.
- More deleted scenes. I'm usually not one for deleted scenes (especially in movies) but many of the cuts from TNG were for time, and no other reason, so bring 'em on! Too bad the scenes from Up the Long Ladder weren't reproduced in HD (what source were they drawn from? An earlier cut? If a similar situation to the VHS of Measure of a Man, then would have loved to see an integrated cut with seemless branching) While I really do like the fencing and party scenes from MoaM, I feel they would have worked better as isolated cut scenes, as integrating them also involved the whole episode being recut at a padded, slower pace. The poker game in particular suffers in the extended cut IMO.
-Isolated score soundtrack. As brought up in a Trekcore interview, this seems like a relatively easy and fun special feature. Let's do it before the music becomes forgettable.
-Commentary tracks. More writers and directors please! All respect to Dan Curry, going on about the FX just isn't that interesting for this show. The writing's where it's at. I loved Bowman's tales of working with Delancey as well.
-Two parters on the same disc. Many mid season 2 parters ended up split across 2 discs on the DVD sets. With the flexibility offered by increased storage space, PLEASE organize the episodes and special features so that 2 parters can be watched back to back without switching discs. (would including the S3 cliffhanger at the start of S4 be too much to ask? Probably.
-STOP MAKING ME CHOOSE ENGLISH EVERY TIME I LOAD A DISC! As others have mentioned, blu ray players should be able to remember choices made in the past when replaying a disc. Is this how CBS handles every one of their bd releases? It's rather annoying and obnoxious. Sometimes I'll load a disc and walk away (knowing there's so much unskippable fluff at the head of the disc anyway) then I'll return to the room and remember, 'oh, crap, I forgot to choose ENGLISH so now I have more nonsense to wait through.' I understand it's an international product, but there has to be a better way.
-Gag reels. Keep em coming. The actors' joy of working on this show is really brought out at these moments along with the round table discussions... Great to see these people interacting with each other and to see that they really liked what they were doing, even if some of the lines were unsayable at times.
OK, tldr, I know. I love this show, and I really hoped the blu rays would elevate S2 in the same way they did S1. Everyone was so excited and impressed by the overall effect of S1 that those who have long dismissed it really started to relish the richness and newness of what has always been there. Too bad the approach to S2 has undermined so much of that newly rediscovered good will.
Yeah, while the effects haven't really dragged the season down for me, they certainly haven't elevated it either-- which is exactly what the S1 set did, and what I was hoping to see from this season as well.
"Q Who?" in particular I think really could have benefited from the more shadowy, moodier lighting CBS-D used on S1, to better match the creepiness of the episode. If there's any episode I'd love to see them revisit and fix some day, it's that one.
"Q Who?" in particular I think really could have benefited from the more shadowy, moodier lighting CBS-D used on S1, to better match the creepiness of the episode. If there's any episode I'd love to see them revisit and fix some day, it's that one.
I have noticed some vfx that were a bit odd. Hell, 2 in particular disappeared completely. In The Schizoid Man (I think), Picard is looking at some holographic solar system observing one planets orbit being very skewed. The final scence involving this shot has the hologram disappearing from screen a split second before changing camera angles. But, you can still hear the sound effect as though it was still on Picards desk.
In Unnatural Selection, the last shot of the medical station shows what appears to be a flowing river in the background. Again, just before the shot changes, the river stops flowing, the effect gone.
Lastly, in Up the Long Ladder, was it really necessary to show the shadow of the Enterprise on the planets rings? It didn't make any sense to me, but whatever.
Now i'm nitpicking. :-) I am enjoying the season, though!
In Unnatural Selection, the last shot of the medical station shows what appears to be a flowing river in the background. Again, just before the shot changes, the river stops flowing, the effect gone.
Lastly, in Up the Long Ladder, was it really necessary to show the shadow of the Enterprise on the planets rings? It didn't make any sense to me, but whatever.
Now i'm nitpicking. :-) I am enjoying the season, though!
The episodes are being presented in chronological order which, sorry, is probably going to split two-parters across discs. The only alternative is re-arranging the episodes out of order which would a)be illogical b)may cause continuity issues.
Well, no points for effort in HTV's handling of the visual effects. Where as CBS Digital would add a little sparkle to their work (fixing continuity errors), HTV seems to be doing the absolute minimum. Not only do the planets look undetailed and fuzzy, but there are some instances where it looks like a solid JPG image. That's when it hit me. A lot of these effects look like they were done without keeping it consistent with the film footage.
Also, I know this was in the original episode, but was it ever explained why the Enterprise's nacelles were offline in almost every shot showing the other ships?
Also, I know this was in the original episode, but was it ever explained why the Enterprise's nacelles were offline in almost every shot showing the other ships?
Example? Only time I recall them being off were times when they were "supposed to be off." Unless you looking at the back of the nacelles which aren't quite as well lit as the sides of the nacelles.
I have to agree. I just watched "Q Who" and the scenes where the 1701-D is slowly flying away from the camera into space you can see, that the nacelle lights pass isnt quite stable horizontally. At some points the nacelle lights move slightly left/right away from the models nacelles. HTV didnt even made the effort to stabilize the nacelle light pass.
Seems like HTV must have scored this contract based on Curry's reputation and his involvement with the original run of TNG. The team working under Curry's supervision at HTV clearly lacked the required experience to pull off a project of this complexity.
I'm sure it must have been a painful learning experience, for both CBS and HTV.
I have to wonder if the fans speak loudly enough, would CBS consider going back and refining things on Season 2? For such a historical project, it would seem wrong to leave Season 2 in this shape. Not only do the new S2 effects lack CBS-D's fine polish, they lack an overall professionalism. I'm gobsmacked that this was ever allowed to happen.
I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about the work HTV did. Were there some things that should've been caught? Yes. Does it mean the entire season two effort was a waste? No.
I watched Contagion, The Royale and Time Squared last night and all three looked perfectly fine in motion.
The lighting of the models seems more in line with what we saw in the original releases instead of the work done by CBS. But this viewer is liable to find that the darker lighting of the models that CBS has done won't match up with the later seasons when live-action shots are so much brighter than seasons one/two.
I'm just not sure constantly harping on season two's effects flaws really is constructive. YMMV.
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