• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Season 2 and Race

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
If you mean that because of my post, then let me clarify. I did know that Latin and Hispanic people are negatively affected by ICE and mentioned this in my first post. I assume there are other groups of people that are also negatively affectedly ICE too. I didn't appreciate that the story was specifically about the bias against Hispanic people.

Most Hispanic illegal immigrants to the US are from Central American countries yet neither Rios nor Teresa look Central American. Without knowing, I would guess Argentine for both. I suppose the point is that ICE groups all Hispanic people together, but because they were so separate in my head, it never clicked for me that just being Hispanic was the reason that Rios was taken in. The guy that drops Rios off at the clinic is Asian, implying that the clinic has "no police" patients from multiple nationalities and so them getting raided doesn't mean the clinic was chosen for being Hispanic owned. Additionally, Rios seems suspicious during a raid and isn't apply to provide an ID when asked. They don't arrest him just for being Hispanic.

PatStew spoke a lot about Brexit being important to the story in season 1 and I assumed there was the same general immigration theme in season 2. I didn't appreciate though that they had gone more specific in this season to focus on the bias Hispanic people face as I assume ICE don't only deal with Hispanic people. Los Angeles also has a high Hispanic population and therefore seeing a lot of Hispanic people on the bus didn't really stand out to me. Obviously the ICE officers were white, but nu Trek is trying hard to be woke so doubt they would ever cast someone non-white in a racist role, regardless of the situation.

Now that it's been pointed out to me, it's really obvious, but like I said, I'm not American and so I'm not constantly reminded of these issues.
 
Honestly, I would be more interested to know why Trek's sum total of representation of the Indian subcontinent remains a genocidal.maniac played by a Hispanic actor, then a white one... and a guy who has been sitting at a desk in a deserted space station for 30 years in the hope that a starship moghr stop by and he wpuld get to unfold a fed flag. A dofth of the qorlds populatipn remain unrepresented in Trek in any nain charaxter role and that is an issue that needs to be considered urgwntly.
 
Honestly, I would be more interested to know why Trek's sum total of representation of the Indian subcontinent remains a genocidal.maniac played by a Hispanic actor, then a white one... and a guy who has been sitting at a desk in a deserted space station for 30 years in the hope that a starship moghr stop by and he wpuld get to unfold a fed flag. A dofth of the qorlds populatipn remain unrepresented in Trek in any nain charaxter role and that is an issue that needs to be considered urgwntly.

Hey, there was Cadet Sidhu in that Short Trek with Pike too.
 
I know arguments for Trek being too woke or not woke enough can be a thorny issue but I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from both sides.

Is it? I was under the assumption that anyone who argued Star Trek was too woke had completely missed the franchise's point and they were (rightly) a subject of ridicule among fans.

Honestly, I would be more interested to know why Trek's sum total of representation of the Indian subcontinent remains a genocidal.maniac played by a Hispanic actor, then a white one... and a guy who has been sitting at a desk in a deserted space station for 30 years in the hope that a starship moghr stop by and he wpuld get to unfold a fed flag. A dofth of the qorlds populatipn remain unrepresented in Trek in any nain charaxter role and that is an issue that needs to be considered urgwntly.

Are we counting Illia or not?
 
In “Past Tense” – the other trip to 2024 - Sisko (black) and Bashir (Arab) trapped in the Sanctuary District, while Dax (white) was in the proximity of a 1%er (white) and 2024 high society (mostly white, but talked about issues going on in Europe and America and the Caribbean, not Asia, Africa, Middle East, Latin America). And were rescued by Kira (white) and O’Brien (white). Its not hard to see the stereotypes in play at first glance reading this summary.

Honestly, the Sanctuary Districts were the Star Trek franchise playing it safe with issues of homelessness and poverty in America. They were powerful, though, because it is an actual issue to address. The irony being the fact that a massive program from the United States government to make sure that all of America's homeless were, in fact, given even housing (however poorly maintained) as well as a food program to eat is beyond the ability of anyone in government to achieve now. Yes, the Sanctuary Districts are BETTER than our current situation.

But yes, I also believe it was somewhat cowardly and the handling of ICE as shown to be a racist and aggressive organization attacking a free hospital to deport people is just 100% justified. ICE engaged in involuntary sterialization of prisoners, horrific conditions, and attacks against sanctuary cities in RL. People may have disliked taking such an overtly political stance against a real group but Will Wheaton could barely hide his overt disgust at ICE when the episode came up in the ready room.

Rios is chasing after a woman he barely knew that is frequently targeted by ICE; concussion or not, it doesn’t seem like the time to be a Latin lover character if that was the intent and yet he doubles down on it. And while I don’t expect Rios to be as familiar with 21st century American history as he’s Chilean, he must hold some familiarity of the Latin diaspora and the issues surrounding immigration into the US during that particular period. Especially considering America is an empire and how various empires have fallen tend to be taught in history class.

Essentially Rios suffers from the fact that he and most of the other characters are given "busy work" in the story because they didn't have enough time or the inclination to give them actual plotlines. There's a TV trope for this called Trapped by Mountain Lions that basically says the story exists to give the actors something to do. Rios actually benefits from this because at least he has a socially relevant plotline to deal with.

Unfortunately, it seems his entire romance is written for the purposes of writing him out of the franchise when he was easily one of the most popular Picard characters.

They don’t have Teresa say anything about the state of the US either in 2024 – not ICE, not Sanctuary Districts, not healthcare, not the economic situation at the time, not climate change, not “trading hood for suits” like Young Guinan, not the Europa mission. Absolutely nothing. She was an afterthought and we gain no insight into Trek's idea of 2024 from her perspective. Even Gillian in TVH mentioned whaling being a thing in the 1980s, and Lily in FC mentioned the Eastern Coalition still being a concern years after the war was over.

I think you are undermining Teresa's role in the show as she does actually point out that the medical care available to her patients necessitates her running a illegal free clinic. She also has her patients targeted by ICE for deportation while they are still in treatment. Teresa has a LOT to say about America in 2024 and it doesn't need to be spelled out when she's arrested for doing good.

Raffi is having a meltdown over Elnor, when Picard is the one who had the strongest connection with Elnor; the relationship between Raffi and Elnor is not explained well, even though there is a setup of Raffi losing contact with her actual son and wanting to be a mother to someone else to build upon. She also seems to be completely unaware as to what law enforcement is like in the 21st century, despite being a security officer. That’s something you can’t see happening with Sisko; he’d know about that history with police and BLM, as black history was important to him. The writers this season turned Raffi into basically a borderline bimbo, which is a weird creative decision to make, considering that both DIS and LD have strong female black leads and characters. If the intent was to be about mental illness, they missed that mark entirely and it did not come across clear enough.

Speaking as someone who works with the mentally ill and is neuroatypical as well, I'm wondering why Raffi is getting treated as mentally ill in your post. As for Raffi, she actually adapts fairly well to the situation and at least knows to get herself some money.
 
FYI - just to be clear, that was actually a serious question not an attempt to be snarky.

FYI – I was giving a serious answer.

Honestly, the Sanctuary Districts were the Star Trek franchise playing it safe with issues of homelessness and poverty in America. They were powerful, though, because it is an actual issue to address. The irony being the fact that a massive program from the United States government to make sure that all of America's homeless were, in fact, given even housing (however poorly maintained) as well as a food program to eat is beyond the ability of anyone in government to achieve now. Yes, the Sanctuary Districts are BETTER than our current situation.

No, they’re not. That’s the point. Sanctuary Districts are supposed to look like it solves the problem of homelessness. When in reality, those in the Sanctuary Districts are dealing with more than just homelessness. The solution was “out of sight, out of mind”.

Its even made clear in the episode that it was no longer the responsibility of the federal government to employ anyone. Not sure how that’s better than now, when the federal government still offers employment?

But yes, I also believe it was somewhat cowardly and the handling of ICE as shown to be a racist and aggressive organization attacking a free hospital to deport people is just 100% justified. ICE engaged in involuntary sterialization of prisoners, horrific conditions, and attacks against sanctuary cities in RL. People may have disliked taking such an overtly political stance against a real group but Will Wheaton could barely hide his overt disgust at ICE when the episode came up in the ready room.

ICE was not handled with nuanced. And if they were not going to address ICE & immigration more in depth, they should have addressed ICE’s role in a police state.

Essentially Rios suffers from the fact that he and most of the other characters are given "busy work" in the story because they didn't have enough time or the inclination to give them actual plotlines. There's a TV trope for this called Trapped by Mountain Lions that basically says the story exists to give the actors something to do. Rios actually benefits from this because at least he has a socially relevant plotline to deal with.

Unfortunately, it seems his entire romance is written for the purposes of writing him out of the franchise when he was easily one of the most popular Picard characters.

I’m not mad they gave Rios something to do. I’m mad that he, Teresa, and other characters were basically afterthought and did not have more fleshed-out stories. The opportunity was right there to have Rios discuss with Teresa his breakup with Jurati and not fitting in with Starfleet and it doesn’t happen. Likewise, there was an opportunity to show Teresa as one of those people mentioned in “Past Tense” that has given up on fixing the problems faced in 2024.

If they wanted to write Rios out, why not say he’s going on a decade long second contact mission to the Delta Quadrant? Or give him a death scene in 2024?

And I know the exact series and episode that trope refers to.

I think you are undermining Teresa's role in the show as she does actually point out that the medical care available to her patients necessitates her running a illegal free clinic. She also has her patients targeted by ICE for deportation while they are still in treatment. Teresa has a LOT to say about America in 2024 and it doesn't need to be spelled out when she's arrested for doing good.

If they are willing to spell out the evolution of racists through Guinan, they could have had Teresa discuss America at this point in time. Even if it was a couple of throwaway lines in “I’ve love space & space travel, but I’m not thinking of the Europa mission right now. I’m not sure how that mission is going to help anyone. The money being spent there would have been better spent on people and the planet, since they both in desperate need of help.” I’m not sure what the writers have to walk on eggshells about.

Especially since DS9 already addressed police states, homelessness, poverty & social ills in our time with a much braver take. And those episodes were made 30 years ago!

Speaking as someone who works with the mentally ill and is neuroatypical as well, I'm wondering why Raffi is getting treated as mentally ill in your post. As for Raffi, she actually adapts fairly well to the situation and at least knows to get herself some money.

Read my post again. I never said she was mentally ill. I was questioning if the intent was to depict her as mentally ill. And if it was, it missed the mark.
 
No, they’re not. That’s the point. Sanctuary Districts are supposed to look like it solves the problem of homelessness. When in reality, those in the Sanctuary Districts are dealing with more than just homelessness. The solution was “out of sight, out of mind”.

Its even made clear in the episode that it was no longer the responsibility of the federal government to employ anyone. Not sure how that’s better than now, when the federal government still offers employment?

Yes, they're awful and the solution in today's America of letting them die in the streets and no food or effort to solve the issue whatsoever is worse. We are the worst timeline.

ICE was not handled with nuanced. And if they were not going to address ICE & immigration more in depth, they should have addressed ICE’s role in a police state.

May I ask what nuance there is to ICE? It's an organization guilty of crimes against humanity and I'm not sure what possible spin you could put to the draconian measures it uses against immigrants. Basically, a good chunk of the audience don't believe what they persecute people for is even a crime and should be more like a parking ticket at worst.

Why attempt to polish a hand grenade?

If they wanted to write Rios out, why not say he’s going on a decade long second contact mission to the Delta Quadrant? Or give him a death scene in 2024?

Probably because they felt this was the best story to write him out. Fans apparently strongly disagree.

If they are willing to spell out the evolution of racists through Guinan, they could have had Teresa discuss America at this point in time. Even if it was a couple of throwaway lines in “I’ve love space & space travel, but I’m not thinking of the Europa mission right now. I’m not sure how that mission is going to help anyone. The money being spent there would have been better spent on people and the planet, since they both in desperate need of help.” I’m not sure what the writers have to walk on eggshells about.

I dunno, unlike Guinan, Theresa is a victim of police brutality. So you don't need her saying things when they show them.

As a writer, I know which is normally considered the better option.
 
Last edited:
To everyone mad at the ICE stuff: Sorry your country does horrific things, that your favourite franchise pointed it out and it made you uncomfortable. Most of us would say that's the point but whatever.

America’s not my country. I’m not bothered by the ICE stuff in the show. I just think it could have been written better.

Yes, they're awful and the solution in today's America of letting them die in the streets and no food or effort to solve the issue whatsoever is worse. We are the worst timeline.

The point being made was that Sanctuary Districts were a bandaid and that deep structural change needed to be made to actually solve the problem. And it was no better than what is done today.

May I ask what nuance there is to ICE? It's an organization guilty of crimes against humanity and I'm not sure what possible spin you could put to the draconian measures it uses against immigrants. Basically, a good chunk of the audience don't believe what they persecute people for is even a crime and should be more like a parking ticket at worst.

Why attempt to polish a hand grenade?

You address ICE and its supporters by confronting the arguments that their approach towards immigration is good and deconstruct them? Just a thought.

I dunno, unlike Guinan, Theresa is a victim of police brutality. So you don't need her saying things when they show them.

As a writer, I know which is normally considered the better option.

Rios was also a victim of police brutality. And seems completely unaware of the time period he was in, since he was shocked that people were forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. So, he should be opinionated about the brutality he faced to Teresa, since I imagine that this isn't considered normal at all in the 24th/25th century.

You might think that showing Teresa as a victim of police brutality is good enough and that nothing needs to be explained further. But its also apparent that there was room for Rios and Teresa to have a discussion about police brutality in 2024 beyond Teresa saying she’s been through the process before.

The moment has passed though, so there’s no point to revisit that.
 
America’s not my country. I’m not bothered by the ICE stuff in the show. I just think it could have been written better.

I'm just saying the visceralness it's portrayed as is the biggest argument against it because their behavior is 100% accuratr.

The point being made was that Sanctuary Districts were a bandaid and that deep structural change needed to be made to actually solve the problem. And it was no better than what is done today.

And my point is that even that band-aid is someone that would be impossible to implement. In my own home state, the government killed a bill to make sure all children in the state are fed regular meals.

You address ICE and its supporters by confronting the arguments that their approach towards immigration is good and deconstruct them? Just a thought.

I mean, their argument is that it is justified to use horrific violence to deport people for being in the wrong place. Does that require debate or is it better just to show how awful it and the conditions involved are? Do we need bashir going, "And this is terrible!"
 
Why reshape society into a fundamentally egalitarian/humanitarian state when you can tenaciously grasp an ephemeral and highly subjective illusion of "freedom"?
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top