Season 1

[kkt]

You couldn't have green-lighted it before the early 90's, and certainly casting Avery Brooks as your lead today wouldn't fly.

I'm not sure I understand. You mean Avery in particular, because he's now a bit on the old side to play the role and wouldn't be interested in the demands of acting in a TV series? Or any actor similar to Avery?

What would keep the show from being approved since 9/11 would be portraying terrorists as sympathetic in any way.

 

[borgboy]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

Indeed, but you must admit that there is a certain irony to the fact that the Americans got their land by doing to the natives pretty much what the Cardassians did to the Bajorans. And then they made westerns where the Natives Americans were described as savages. First you victimize people and then you blame them for being unwilling victims to boot.

 

[borgboy]

I am aware of the parallel between Bajorans and Native Americans.
I recently read somewhere the idea of DS9 being similar to a traditonal Western, with all the traditional Western characters you might expect, the sheriff (Odo), the Mayor (Sisko), the Native American (Kira), saloon keeper (Quark), even a schoolmarm (Keiko). The analogy works pretty well, except that the Bajorans reclaimed their home in a way the Native Americans were never able to.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I am aware of the parallel between Bajorans and Native Americans.
I recently read somewhere the idea of DS9 being similar to a traditonal Western, with all the traditional Western characters you might expect, the sheriff (Odo), the Mayor (Sisko), the Native American (Kira), saloon keeper (Quark), even a schoolmarm (Keiko). The analogy works pretty well, except that the Bajorans reclaimed their home in a way the Native Americans were never able to.

Well, analogies only go so far.

 

[RoJoHen]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

Maybe, except the Bajorans flatout called themselves terrorists. Kira identified herself as a terrorist on plenty of occasions.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

Maybe, except the Bajorans flatout called themselves terrorists. Kira identified herself as a terrorist on plenty of occasions.

She even wore the title like a badge of honor.

 

[borgboy]

I can't really argue with that.
I'd still say there's a difference between what Kira's terrorists were doing and the majority of terrorist activities on Earth now. It's a hugely complicated moral issue. I'm still on the side of the Bajorans on that issue. The Cardassians who ran the invasion and rape of Bajor were monsters. Everything the Bajorans did during the Occupation was self defense, and more, defense of their race and world.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I can't really argue with that.
I'd still say there's a difference between what Kira's terrorists were doing and the majority of terrorist activities on Earth now. It's a hugely complicated moral issue. I'm still on the side of the Bajorans on that issue. The Cardassians who ran the invasion and rape of Bajor were monsters. Everything the Bajorans did during the Occupation was self defense, and more, defense of their race and world.

Dukat did his best to defend the morality of the occupation, though.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

Maybe, except the Bajorans flatout called themselves terrorists. Kira identified herself as a terrorist on plenty of occasions.

Yes, and people who are gay might call themselves queer, and people who are black might call themselves ... . People will appropriate the words that are used to demean and discredit them, but that does not mean that they are accepting that definition for themselves. "Queer" means strange and deviant: is that really what LGBT people think of themselves? No. Similarly, calling oneself a terrorist does not in and of itself mean that someone is accepting a particular legal and political designation.

By now, the term has drifted more to refer to people who make attacks on the public for the purpose of changing attitudes and creating great unease. All the Shakaar Cell's attacks were on military figures and collaborators with the intention of directly challenging their presence. We never hear of an attack on the public square with little care to the Bajorans who might be bystanders.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I don't see the Bajorans as terrorists since they were fighting to reclaim their own planet. The Cardassians had no business being on Bajor, they were slavers and murderers and worse.

Maybe, except the Bajorans flatout called themselves terrorists. Kira identified herself as a terrorist on plenty of occasions.

Yes, and people who are gay might call themselves queer, and people who are black might call themselves ... . People will appropriate the words that are used to demean and discredit them, but that does not mean that they are accepting that definition for themselves. "Queer" means strange and deviant: is that really what LGBT people think of themselves? No. Similarly, calling oneself a terrorist does not in and of itself mean that someone is accepting a particular legal and political designation.

By now, the term has drifted more to refer to people who make attacks on the public for the purpose of changing attitudes and creating great unease. All the Shakaar Cell's attacks were on military figures and collaborators with the intention of directly challenging their presence. We never hear of an attack on the public square with little care to the Bajorans who might be bystanders.

In Tacking Into The Wind Kira made a statement in direct opposition to that. She said that they couldn't afford to be cautious about not harming Bajorans when attacking Cardassian facilities.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Maybe, except the Bajorans flatout called themselves terrorists. Kira identified herself as a terrorist on plenty of occasions.

Yes, and people who are gay might call themselves queer, and people who are black might call themselves ... . People will appropriate the words that are used to demean and discredit them, but that does not mean that they are accepting that definition for themselves. "Queer" means strange and deviant: is that really what LGBT people think of themselves? No. Similarly, calling oneself a terrorist does not in and of itself mean that someone is accepting a particular legal and political designation.

By now, the term has drifted more to refer to people who make attacks on the public for the purpose of changing attitudes and creating great unease. All the Shakaar Cell's attacks were on military figures and collaborators with the intention of directly challenging their presence. We never hear of an attack on the public square with little care to the Bajorans who might be bystanders.

In Tacking Into The Wind Kira made a statement in direct opposition to that. She said that they couldn't afford to be cautious about not harming Bajorans when attacking Cardassian facilities.

I quite deliberately included those who might be considered collaborators, but she was still not talking about attacking Bajorans directly, but not being afraid when the enemy attempts to use people as human shields.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Yes, and people who are gay might call themselves queer, and people who are black might call themselves ... . People will appropriate the words that are used to demean and discredit them, but that does not mean that they are accepting that definition for themselves. "Queer" means strange and deviant: is that really what LGBT people think of themselves? No. Similarly, calling oneself a terrorist does not in and of itself mean that someone is accepting a particular legal and political designation.

By now, the term has drifted more to refer to people who make attacks on the public for the purpose of changing attitudes and creating great unease. All the Shakaar Cell's attacks were on military figures and collaborators with the intention of directly challenging their presence. We never hear of an attack on the public square with little care to the Bajorans who might be bystanders.

In Tacking Into The Wind Kira made a statement in direct opposition to that. She said that they couldn't afford to be cautious about not harming Bajorans when attacking Cardassian facilities.

I quite deliberately included those who might be considered collaborators, but she was still not talking about attacking Bajorans directly, but not being afraid when the enemy attempts to use people as human shields.

People used as human shields are not collaborators. That's an abuse of the term. If you're captured and put in a cell inside an enemy compound that doesn't make you a collaborator, does it?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

In Tacking Into The Wind Kira made a statement in direct opposition to that. She said that they couldn't afford to be cautious about not harming Bajorans when attacking Cardassian facilities.

I quite deliberately included those who might be considered collaborators, but she was still not talking about attacking Bajorans directly, but not being afraid when the enemy attempts to use people as human shields.

People used as human shields are not collaborators. That's an abuse of the term. If you're captured and put in a cell inside an enemy compound that doesn't make you a collaborator, does it?

Nor did I try to equate them--DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. The Shakaar's targets, as well Dumar's, were those of the Dominion.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I quite deliberately included those who might be considered collaborators, but she was still not talking about attacking Bajorans directly, but not being afraid when the enemy attempts to use people as human shields.

People used as human shields are not collaborators. That's an abuse of the term. If you're captured and put in a cell inside an enemy compound that doesn't make you a collaborator, does it?

Nor did I try to equate them--DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. The Shakaar's targets, as well Dumar's, were those of the Dominion.

But when you say that Kira's attacks never harmed Bajoran bystanders that is demonstrably false. It did harm them and Kira wouldn't change her plan had she known that in advance as she said so herself. So maybe you were a bit too quick in your assumptions.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

People used as human shields are not collaborators. That's an abuse of the term. If you're captured and put in a cell inside an enemy compound that doesn't make you a collaborator, does it?

Nor did I try to equate them--DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. The Shakaar's targets, as well Dumar's, were those of the Dominion.

But when you say that Kira's attacks never harmed Bajoran bystanders that is demonstrably false. It did harm them and Kira wouldn't change her plan had she known that in advance as she said so herself. So maybe you were a bit too quick in your assumptions.

Again, not what I said. Stop putting words in my mouth. By referencing the public square, I meant an attack whose target was not precise specifically for changing the political atmosphere. That is what a suicide bomber does, for instance, when she is sent into a mosque or market place. We never hear of Kira's group doing something like that.

 

[Orphalesion]

To me what the Bajorans did seemed more akin to underground resistance movements in Nazi-occupied Europe. Of course innocent people died because of their actions, but if the government you're fighting sets up concentration camps, you might get less selective about your targets. I don't know much about war, but I know that guerrilla tactics are always messy.

Perhaps in a remake we would see more of a dark side to the Bajoran Resistance? It was hinted at occasionally, like with Kyra's story were she accidentally shot that mother animal nursing its young. Had the show been made today Kyra might talk about the time she actually shot a Bajoran mother nursing her child.

I thought DS9 handled the religious issues pretty fairly.
Yes, Winn is hypocritical and evil, but Kira is a lead character who is sincerely devout and a good person. I'd argue that Kira is the best depiction of a religious character ever done. That her religion is fictional doesn't take away from how well her character is developed and how well done the religious story arcs are. Sisko makes a point to Jake about respecting the beliefs of others even if you don't agree with them. The finale was the best episode of season 1 in my opinion.

I don't know if you meant me. Yes DS9 treats religion very fairly, except in that one episode imho. I have no problem with Vedek Winn being evil and hypocritical, people like that exist in any religious movement.
It just annoyed me that it came down to the old "Science vs. Religion" and everybody picked a side and stuck to it. Even Kyra admitted that she thought Winn had a point. I personally always cringe at that particular debate because people often paint it as a black/white issue: "if your religious, you can't accept scientific theory", "if you are a scientist you have to dismiss religion as a fairy tale". In those debates I always end up square in the middle with both sides yelling at me or telling me I can't accept current scientific theory while also having faith in a higher being.

That's why the episode made me cringe, not because of the way Winn was portrayed. As I said, I know people like her in my own congregation, just as slimy and just as two-faced as her abd just as hypocritical. However she is also pretty much a medieval/renaissance bishop in space and quite accurate in that portrayal. That makes her interesting, those were the people that caused Luther to break with Rome.

 

[borgboy]

To me what the Bajorans did seemed more akin to underground resistance movements in Nazi-occupied Europe. Of course innocent people died because of their actions, but if the government you're fighting sets up concentration camps, you might get less selective about your targets. I don't know much about war, but I know that guerrilla tactics are always messy.

Perhaps in a remake we would see more of a dark side to the Bajoran Resistance? It was hinted at occasionally, like with Kyra's story were she accidentally shot that mother animal nursing its young. Had the show been made today Kyra might talk about the time she actually shot a Bajoran mother nursing her child.

I thought DS9 handled the religious issues pretty fairly.
Yes, Winn is hypocritical and evil, but Kira is a lead character who is sincerely devout and a good person. I'd argue that Kira is the best depiction of a religious character ever done. That her religion is fictional doesn't take away from how well her character is developed and how well done the religious story arcs are. Sisko makes a point to Jake about respecting the beliefs of others even if you don't agree with them. The finale was the best episode of season 1 in my opinion.

I don't know if you meant me. Yes DS9 treats religion very fairly, except in that one episode imho. I have no problem with Vedek Winn being evil and hypocritical, people like that exist in any religious movement.
It just annoyed me that it came down to the old "Science vs. Religion" and everybody picked a side and stuck to it. Even Kyra admitted that she thought Winn had a point. I personally always cringe at that particular debate because people often paint it as a black/white issue: "if your religious, you can't accept scientific theory", "if you are a scientist you have to dismiss religion as a fairy tale". In those debates I always end up square in the middle with both sides yelling at me or telling me I can't accept current scientific theory while also having faith in a higher being.

That's why the episode made me cringe, not because of the way Winn was portrayed. As I said, I know people like her in my own congregation, just as slimy and just as two-faced as her abd just as hypocritical. However she is also pretty much a medieval/renaissance bishop in space and quite accurate in that portrayal. That makes her interesting, those were the people that caused Luther to break with Rome.

I really liked the episode. It's one of the better Trek does social issues episodes I think. All the major players represented real life factions of people. I do think I understand what your issue is, that the episode lacked a character of faith who embraced religion. To be fair, the real life debates often lack that voice too - although I can see how that pov could have worked.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

...
Perhaps in a remake we would see more of a dark side to the Bajoran Resistance? It was hinted at occasionally, like with Kyra's story were she accidentally shot that mother animal nursing its young. Had the show been made today Kyra might talk about the time she actually shot a Bajoran mother nursing her child...

It's funny because they talk about that in Second Skin and the Cardassian says that it's an implanted memory. Kira is even stunned that he knew about this since she said that she told about this to no one. I wonder if it could be an implanted memory. Let's say the Cardassian wanted to make their story of Kira being an undercover agent believable, so their implant THIS incident into Kira's mind, so that he can talk about it later as he did. Besides for a little while Kira was unsure, perhaps partly because of this detail. So I'll say this could well be an implanted memory.

 

[Lance]

The thing that's always baffled me about "Dax", is that they went to all the effort of bringing Dorothy Fontana back into the fold... but then gave her something so pedestrian as a writing assignment.

I can understand the thinking that maybe they were hoping D.C. would bring with her the mojo that saw her hit so many great character-led episodes out of the park on TOS and TAS (perhaps they were hoping that she would enrich the Jadzia Dax character in the same way she helped to make Spock so intriguing).

I dunno. There just seems to be something very 'missed opportunity' about it to me.