Scifi with aggressive sexuality

[BigJake]

Thankfully I grew up in a community where that was virtually non-existent.

WHOOOOOSHHHH

I know you were trying to sympathize, but yeah. Your takeaway from that post should not be that you "know" what is and isn't "virtually non-existent" for women in any place and time. Most guys simply don't. It's nothing to do with being a bad person, they just don't. The question is whether you're at least aware of how little you know.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm including the experiences of my immediate family members as well, including my mother and sister. I grew up in an out of town suburban neighborhood.

Considering most rape and abuse happens in families and among friends, I'd assume that it definitely happens in small town suburbia.
I'm glad your family members didn't experience it but pretending it doesn't happen in suburbia isn't helpful.

 

[thestrangequark]

The most prolific harassment has happened to me in big cities. The worst assaults happened to me in suburbia.
I've been catcalled in suburbia too. Street harassment just happens less there because there are fewer people to do it -- and, well, you're not really walking around on the street as much in general. Sure, it varies from place to place, but it happens everywhere.

 

[Enterprise1701]

To be clear, there is a difference between catcalling and flirting, right?

 

[Doom Shepherd]

To be clear, there is a difference between catcalling and flirting, right?

Like the difference between shouting in someone's face and whispering in their ear.

 

[Zaku]

^ From Oxford Dictionaries:
catcall
Pronunce: /ˈkatkɔːl/
1.1 A loud whistle or a comment of a sexual nature made by a man to a passing woman:
women were the objects of catcalls when they walked by the men’s barracks

flirt
Pronunce: /fləːt/
VERB

1 Behave as though sexually attracted to someone, but playfully rather than with serious intentions:
she began to tease him, flirting with other men in front of him

 

[Jedman67]

Considering most rape and abuse happens in families and among friends, I'd assume that it definitely happens in small town suburbia.
I'm glad your family members didn't experience it but pretending it doesn't happen in suburbia isn't helpful.

ETA: To the best of my knowledge...etc. Better?
I didn't say it doesn't happen in suburbia, I said that it was unusual or rare ("virtually non-existent") in my community, which is a small section of a small town.
That doesn't make it any more excusable, it's horrible no matter where or to whom it happens.

 

[BillJ]

Some folks are doubling down on thinking certain behaviors are okay, and I'm not sure there is much said here that is going to dissuade them. But, I'd say step back and examine your actions before acting. Think through if you would want someone else to treat your Mother, Sister or Daughter with the same disregard you are treating women that aren't related to you.

 

[Zaku]

Think through if you would want someone else to treat your Mother, Sister or Daughter with the same disregard you are treating women that aren't related to you.

You know, I'm not sure that this is the best motivation...

 

[BillJ]

You know, I'm not sure that this is the best motivation...

I tend to agree. But, you're dealing with people that don't want to pay attention to intellectual arguments as to why objectifying women is a bad thing. You can say it over and over and over, and most who are set in their way simply won't/don't want to change on that basis.

Sometimes you have to make it about them and their relationships.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Yeah, we had this discussion earlier in the thread. "You should treat women decently because you are related to women and you wouldn't want them treated badly" recenters the conversation on a male, rather than female perspective.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, we had this discussion earlier in the thread. "You should treat women decently because you are related to women and you wouldn't want them treated badly" recenters the conversation on a male, rather than female perspective.

Oh, I understand. But for some folks, there's no amount of logical arguments backed by experience that is going to matter.

Women saying they don't want to be objectified doesn't matter one bit to them. It is what they want that matters. So I think for those folks the question of "how do you want women in your life treated by strangers?" maybe the only way to get them to stop and think about their actions. I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand as a tool to try and make people who are immune to logic, to stop and think.

There is a post from the "Which Trek Character Would You Marry?" that bothers me...

Andrea the android, who is drop-dead gorgeous AND does everything you tell her to do.

@Forbin Would you want someone marrying your potential daughter based solely on being someone that is drop dead gorgeous and does whatever she is told to do?

Maybe if they stop and analyze how they would want their own Mothers, Sisters, Daughters and Wives treated, they can see the error of what they are doing in general society. At least, that is the hope.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Ugh, @BillJ...

I know you mean well but no, just no.
With that kind of reasoning you are objectifying us, too. You are teaching other men that we are only worth something because we are related to them. The man is the subject, the woman is the object.

Please let women tell you that we want to be seen as human beings who are "someone". And not just "someone's daughter/wife/sister". It is harmful even if you mean well.

We don't get our value as human beings from our connections to men. I really hope you will listen to the women in this very thread who have said how awful that kind of reasoning is and will cease to ever bring up the "she is somebody's daughter" argument ever again.

You mean well but you are teaching other men the wrong lesson and this can ultimately be very harmful for us. The men who learn this will think that we do not have a value of our own.

 

[BillJ]

Ugh, @BillJ...

I know you mean well but no, just no.
With that kind of reasoning you are objectifying us, too. You are teaching other men that we are only worth something because we are related to them. The man is the subject, the woman is the object.

Please let women tell you that we want to be seen as human beings who are "someone". And not just "someone's daughter/wife/sister". It is harmful even if you mean well.

We don't get our value as human beings from our connections to men. I really hope you will listen to the women in this very thread who have said how awful that kind of reasoning is and will cease to ever bring up the "she is somebody's daughter" argument ever again.

You mean well but you are teaching other men the wrong lesson and this can ultimately be very harmful for us. The men who learn this will think that we do not have a value of our own.

How we treat people in the public space starts at home. It starts with the people we are connected to.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

How we treat people in the public space starts at home. It starts with the people we are connected to.

Or you could just stop defending and using this kind of male-centered rhetoric because it undermines the overall principle that women are people no matter who they are.

 

[{ Emilia }]

How we treat people in the public space starts at home. It starts with the people we are connected to.

This does not change anything at all about the basic issue. I really implore you to stop digging your heels in on this. You claim to be listening to women so please do now.

Women do not derive their value from their connection to men. Do not, ever, tell somebody: "She could be your daughter." Tell them: "She is a human being."
Don't tell them: "Do you want your daughter to be treated like that?"
Instead ask them: "Do you think any human being, including yourself, should be treated like that?"

I'm a human being like YOU, the man.

 

[BillJ]

Or you could just stop defending and using this kind of male-centered rhetoric because it undermines the overall principle that women are people no matter who they are.

It's male centered to say that these behaviors, by and large, are learned at home? How we treat people, male or female, doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It's male centered to say that these behaviors, by and large, are learned at home? How we treat people, male or female, doesn't exist in a vacuum.

It's male-centered to revolve the issue around a guy's mother, sister, daughter, etc. Why are those women worthy of respect and other women aren't? The inherent logic is pretty clear: because they are related to a man. This is exactly the opposite of seeing women as independent human beings who are worthy of respect for no other reason than being people.

I get what you're saying and understand your intentions, but please read the responses you are getting and try to understand what the issue is with your position on this.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's male centered to say that these behaviors, by and large, are learned at home? How we treat people, male or female, doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Please, please stop.
It is male-centric to define women through their relation to a man. Her connection to a man should never be the reason to treat her well.

If you need to convince men through empathy... tell them: You are treating women as a sex object without agency. Would YOU want to be treated like that? Would you want to be stripped of agency?

We need to teach men that we are not "the other". We are human beings just like you.

Again: I do get your intent but it incredibly harmful. And it would be super-easy to avoid that by simply asking them if THEY want to be stripped of their agency and be treated like shit.

 

[Awesome Possum]

This kind of flippant tone only drives a wider wedge between genders.

Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too. We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce. The male experience is different from the female experience but it's not without its own challenges. There will never be any movement in gender politics unless both sides demonstrate empathy towards the other rather than just airing these laundry-lists of grievances. You know, a little more Emma Watson style feminism. Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.

That's pretty much the problem with all political discourse these days. The identity-politics...no dialogue, just the sound of heels digging in and groups being painted with broad brushes.

It was sarcasm in response to a post where a poster actually said that feelings of men catcalling women should be taken into consideration. I wish I didn't have to explain this, but clearly you need a little help.