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Scifi with aggressive sexuality

Actually, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to be objectified at times.
I did not mean who sometimes wants to be objectified . I meant people with pathological self-esteem issues that genuinely believe that they do not deserve to be treated like human beings. If I met someone that want to be a submissive 24/7 because he/she thinks that he/she doesn't deserve better, I would be genuinely concerned for him/her.
 
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Yes, we must think of the poor oppressed men. They're the true victims in this.

This kind of flippant tone only drives a wider wedge between genders.

Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too. We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce. The male experience is different from the female experience but it's not without its own challenges. There will never be any movement in gender politics unless both sides demonstrate empathy towards the other rather than just airing these laundry-lists of grievances. You know, a little more Emma Watson style feminism. Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.

That's pretty much the problem with all political discourse these days. The identity-politics...no dialogue, just the sound of heels digging in and groups being painted with broad brushes.
 
There is a way that men would like women to be. There are men who they think they know what women really want, how they 'know' what's best for them...versus the way women really are. Real women, not fantasy women. The reverse is also true. There is a way women would like men to be...and then there is the way men really are. The heroes in the romance novels/Chik flicks don't exist but the thing is I believe most women learned that lesson a long time ago. Men are just now catching on (and some are blind to the fact) that they are chasing after phantoms.

I wish it were possible to dig down to the root of these differences and sift through them, ...to see what is positive, what's negative and how to meet in the middle.
 
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I know what you're talking about here but I think that's a completely different issue. That's one for the therapists.
Obviously. What scares me are those who say that this pathological behavior should be the norm for women.
 
Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.

We are not doing that. Are you imagining things that haven't happened in this thread at all? This is tedious.
I have specifically pointed out that denouncing rape culture is not the same as seeing all men as potential rapists.

It's merely denouncing a systemically sexist culture of objectification and denial of agency that's hurting women (and to some degree also men).

You will hardly find more inclusive feminists than the ones in this thread. Many of the people who have posted here are in fact men and I have also pointed out that we will only achieve change together. I've never met feminists who think all men are potential rapists.

This is not a men vs. women issue.
 
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Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too. We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce.
a-pretty-accurate-parallel-photo-u1.jpg
 
This kind of flippant tone only drives a wider wedge between genders.

Because whether someone's right or wrong doesn't matter, only how politely they communicate, huh?

Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too. We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce. The male experience is different from the female experience but it's not without its own challenges. There will never be any movement in gender politics unless both sides demonstrate empathy towards the other rather than just airing these laundry-lists of grievances. You know, a little more Emma Watson style feminism. Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.

Maybe you should respond to what's been said here rather than what you have imagined. Literally nobody here said men don't have feelings, don't have problems, or are all potential rapists ready to pounce. You projected that yourself. That's nobody's fault but your own.

That's pretty much the problem with all political discourse these days. The identity-politics...no dialogue, just the sound of heels digging in and groups being painted with broad brushes.

You may want to move this to the thread where those things actually happened.
 
This kind of flippant tone only drives a wider wedge between genders.

Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too. We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce. The male experience is different from the female experience but it's not without its own challenges. There will never be any movement in gender politics unless both sides demonstrate empathy towards the other rather than just airing these laundry-lists of grievances. You know, a little more Emma Watson style feminism. Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.

That's pretty much the problem with all political discourse these days. The identity-politics...no dialogue, just the sound of heels digging in and groups being painted with broad brushes.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread call all men, or even most men "creeps" and "potential rapists." I've never actually encountered feminists anywhere who've done that. The only people whom I've ever actually seen do that are the ones who imply (or state directly) that women who get catcalled, harassed, assaulted, or raped, somehow provoked it -- this is what says that men are creeps and potential rapists who can't control themselves around pretty girls in short skirts.
 
This kind of flippant tone only drives a wider wedge between genders.
Because treating women like a buffet table is so much better.

Contrary to popular belief, men actually have feelings too.
Heaven forfend the feelings of men not be coddled. Dear God, why have You forsaken men.

We're not just "creeps" and potential rapists waiting to pounce. The male experience is different from the female experience but it's not without its own challenges.
Toxic masculinity has its challenges, regarding women like a lottery prize being one.

There will never be any movement in gender politics unless both sides demonstrate empathy towards the other rather than just airing these laundry-lists of grievances. You know, a little more Emma Watson style feminism.
Respecting women's experience would be a start, too.

Nobody responds well when they are collectively demonized.
True, good thing the only thing demonized has been treating women like end tables and cattle.

That's pretty much the problem with all political discourse these days. The identity-politics...no dialogue, just the sound of heels digging in and groups being painted with broad brushes.
Brilliant irony, or would be had you any comprehension of what's been said as the experience of being a woman by the women here.
 
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Others have already addressed it while I slept, but I don't know that anyone did it with the bluntness and simplicity you require, and one key element was missed.

Firstly, as @BigJake pointed out, everyone knows men don't catcall to get sex. I mean, there may be some complete psycho who takes women's general responses of a)completely ignoring it, b)calling him a sleaze/slime/other name under her breath, c)tensing and walking away as fast as possible, d)telling him outright that she doesn't like it as positive reciprocation, but...well, you don't appreciate sarcasm so I'll stop there.

So, why do they do it? The need for sexual validation, particularly validation of their masculinity, which they do be demonstrating their power over women in public space by harassing them. You literally just made my point, that catcalling is about aggression and power dynamics, for me. The very point which you denied.

Onto, how do they "obtain" what they want? Well, let's start by not treating other people like objects that need obtaining and intimacy like a reward and an entitlement. Here is where you completely missed the point of the bank robber analogy and why I called your post "rapey." Men are no more entitled to women's bodies -- and this extends to harassing women -- than is the bank robber entitled to that money. Your post implied that harassment can be considered a reasonable method of "obtain[ing]" a woman's body, and that is absolutely loathsome.

Now, "rape" is a big word. And not one I'm going to throw around lightly. When I say your post had a "rapey" tone, I mean it. Consider that. That is how you sound. It doesn't mean you sound like a rapist, but it does mean you sound like someone who has normalized and internalized the idea that sex is something men are entitled to.

It tends to happen that when hoist up my petticoats and step on my Catcalling Soapbox people accuse me of making mountain of a molehill, or else say that I'm too sensitive and see every attention from a man as an affront. But women know the difference between looks and leers (No one can really help looks. I give looks! Looks can be pretty great!), and as @{ Emilia } has already said, context matters (there are times and places to pick up a chick, and I tend to make it pretty obvious when I want interact and when I do not). As for why catcalling is such an important issue, well, let's look at a typical day:

Dozens of catcalls, from the moment I step out my door at 7am to the moment I get home. This is with headphones on and "shields up" as I call it (I often blank out male attention as much as possible because of the amount of harassment I receive, to the point where I apologize in advance to male friends and colleagues in case I blank them on the street), so these are just the super loud, physical, and aggressive ones. Imagine how you would feel if people commented on your body all day long. What if you weren't feeling very good about yourself that day? What if you were already feeling self-conscious? What if you'd just had nightmares about the sexual assault you experienced as a child? -- Let's remember the percentage of women who've experienced sexual assault. What if you were just having one of those days where you really didn't feel up to dealing with people, but you gotta go to work, and you're a woman, so you know that on the street your body is fair game. That's just the way it is.
What if you were actually feeling your best? Maybe after hearing, "God bless you baby," "Give us a smile!" "Look at those pink cheeks, I see you blushin'!" "Mmmm, why don't you walk that sweet pussy over here?" "Oh, sexy, sexy! Damn, must be a fuckin' lesbian," "Hey mami! Hey, mami! Hey, I'm talking to you! I'm talking to you, you fucking bitch! Fucking ugly fucking dog bitch!" for 12 hours you might not feel so great anymore?

Now, add to this the fact that behind all that noise, you always know that one of them might actually hurt you if you don't react the way they want you to. Oh, and, you don't know how they want you to react, either! Fun, huh?! You know this because it's happened. Not a lot, but enough to know that it's always a possibility.

Starting small: There was the group who always got me by the autoshop on Montrose and it was raining, and I just couldn't handle the feeling of their eyes on my face that day, so I pulled my umbrella down low to shield my face. One of them snatched it out of my hands.
Then there was the guy who slapped my ass on the sidewalk.
Then there was the guy in line at the bodega, old enough to be my father, who told me I was sexy so I ignored him. He said, "Come on, sexy, don't ignore me," and started stroking my face. I slapped his hand away and he grabbed my wrist. The bodega owner threw him out before it went further.
Then there was the group of guys who wouldn't let me leave the train station and I had to wait with the station agent until the police came.
Then there was the guy who got up in my face while I was talking on the phone with my mom, licked his lips and said, "Mmmm sexy, What you got on under that coat" -- it was about 12ºF and I was wearing a parka that literally went from my neck to my ankles because, guess what, it doesn't matter what you're wearing! -- his intrusion put a hitch in my conversation and after he was, at least so I thought, out of earshot, I told my mom "Sorry, some gross guy was catcalling me." He heard me, came back, grabbed me by the shoulder and started yelling in my face, calling me "bitch" and all that. Middle of the afternoon in Astor Place. It only lasted a few seconds, thankfully.
Then there was the guy in the park off Delancey street, whose advances I tried to ignore, and he responded by grabbing me by both wrists and shaking me.
Then there was the group of guys who were catcalling me when I was 17, and I told them to fuck off, and one grabbed my by my braid and tried to pull me into an alley and I had to pull a boxcutter on him.
Then there was the guy who sat next to me on the train and whispered in my ear, "When you get off I'm going to follow you home and rape you."

So, imagine what it's like to step outside every day, and know that, while most men are great and don't harass women, a good portion of them do, and will harass you that day. And while most of the harassers are just trying to "obtain external sexual validation," a handful might just come after you if you don't give them the sense of power they crave. Then imagine coming online, and seeing someone try to justify their behavior, like YOU ARE DOING. Then imagine trying to enjoy a movie or TV show, and seeing the culture that supports their behavior reinforced over and over and over ad nauseam.

So, let's think through that logically. How should feminists address these issues if not by trying to put an end to hyper-sexualization of women in the media, decontextualized objectification in the media, normalized harassment in the streets, and the notion that women's bodies are something men are entitled to and can obtain?

The male perspective is often so skewed because many men don't seem to be aware of some of the shit women have to deal with all the time.

I don't often tell this kind of story but here's an example:
Just a few days ago I went out to a lounge for a cocktail with friends. Some random dude had been looking at me all night and when I went to the restroom, he intercepted me in the hallway in front of the restrooms. Blocking the narrow hallway with his body and arms. Nobody else around, so it was very uncomfortable.
He randomly told me I've got a hot body and said I should go home with him instead of with the people I came with. (because clearly the fact that he considered me hot is enough of a reason)
I asked him to let me pass, which only made him grin, one hand on each side of the narrow hallway. I ended up having to gently push my way through on one side, he used the opportunity to put his arm around my waist while I got past.

You never know how far these people will go. Don't be one of those guys. You're welcome to find women attractive, and in the right context you're also welcome to tell us that. But don't treat us like sex objects and act entitled. We don't owe you anything just because you find us hot.

Now who of you was thinking: "But what was @{ Emilia } wearing?!"
I wish that there was a way to say that "I support a post" without "liking" it. There's no way to "like" what I just read from the two of you, and I'm so sorry to hear that so much has happened to you.

Anyone who reads these posts and says "this is driving a wedge" or "we should listen to the feelings of men too" is completely missing the point and is clearly more interested in validation than understanding.
 
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What if you were actually feeling your best? Maybe after hearing, "God bless you baby," "Give us a smile!" "Look at those pink cheeks, I see you blushin'!" "Mmmm, why don't you walk that sweet pussy over here?" "Oh, sexy, sexy! Damn, must be a fuckin' lesbian," "Hey mami! Hey, mami! Hey, I'm talking to you! I'm talking to you, you fucking bitch! Fucking ugly fucking dog bitch!" for 12 hours you might not feel so great anymore?

The male perspective is often so skewed because many men don't seem to be aware of some of the shit women have to deal with all the time.

I don't often tell this kind of story but here's an example:
Just a few days ago I went out to a lounge for a cocktail with friends. Some random dude had been looking at me all night and when I went to the restroom, he intercepted me in the hallway in front of the restrooms. Blocking the narrow hallway with his body and arms. Nobody else around, so it was very uncomfortable.
He randomly told me I've got a hot body and said I should go home with him instead of with the people I came with. (because clearly the fact that he considered me hot is enough of a reason)
I asked him to let me pass, which only made him grin, one hand on each side of the narrow hallway. I ended up having to gently push my way through on one side, he used the opportunity to put his arm around my waist while I got past.

You never know how far these people will go. Don't be one of those guys. You're welcome to find women attractive, and in the right context you're also welcome to tell us that. But don't treat us like sex objects and act entitled. We don't owe you anything just because you find us hot.

Now who of you was thinking: "But what was @{ Emilia } wearing?!"
Ugh, that's so horrible, I can't even imagine. No one deserves to be treated like that and that kind of behavior is inexcusable. Thankfully I grew up in a community where that was virtually non-existent.
 
If anything said here should sink in, it's that women experience a lot of shit, shit the male experience may not recognize because their myopia is validated by society.
I'm including the experiences of my immediate family members as well, including my mother and sister. I grew up in an out of town suburban neighborhood.
 
I'm including the experiences of my immediate family members as well, including my mother and sister. I grew up in an out of town suburban neighborhood.
I didn't see it, therefore it doesn't exist. Yeah, this Utopia would be highly valuable to anyone selling real estate. Huge.
 
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