Saucer Separation

[Mytran]

EAF wasn't terribly consistent with the new "streaky" warp effects. When we first see the ship at the start of the episode the stars are moving but not streaking; this is consistent with Warp FX in TOS and TMP. Also note in TMP that (after Spock's arrival) although there are the streaks and flashes when the ship first enters warp, there is a corresponding flash shortly afterwards when Sulu announces proudly "Warp 7".
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=588&page=2

The stars are moving but they are not streaking. In short, moving stars = FTL travel. Streaks and flashes are reserved for the ship entering or leaving the camera's POV when at FTL velocities.

The upshot of all this in TNG terms? The streaky effects in EAF seem to be reserved for "high warp" situations. The sharp U-turn that the secondary hull did after expelling the saucer may or may not have occurred at Warp 7. It's still tough to tell

 

[CorporalCaptain]

VFX notwithstanding, it's quite clear from the dialog in "Farpoint" that the saucer separation occurred at warp.

I've always assumed that, once it left the warp bubble of the stardrive section, the saucer steadily bled off warp speed, dropped out of warp, then went the rest of the way to Deneb IV at sublight.

If that means that the saucer has warp sustainers just for that sort of maneuver, so be it. That's fine and logical. It would be sorta like the stardrive section hurled the saucer like a discus.

 

[Ithekro]

The only problem with this seems to be from Data's suggestion that separation at warp speed is not advisable. If that is the case, how is the saucer suppose to get to warp speeds to escape in other instances?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The only problem with this seems to be from Data's suggestion that separation at warp speed is not advisable.

I don't see how that's a problem.

Let's say that a glitch occurs in the warp engines during separation. For example, suppose there's an excess static charge somewhere that causes arcing between the saucer and the stardrive, which overloads an EPS somewhere. Just for a microsecond, the warp field goes out of alignment. But that's still bad, because it causes the saucer to careen into the stardrive, destroying both sections and killing everyone aboard.

tl;dr=technobabble causes a big boom

If that is the case, how is the saucer suppose to get to warp speeds to escape in other instances?

It doesn't. It has to do the best it can at sublight.

 

[Mytran]

Even if the saucer has some limited FTL capactity, I doubt it is enough to match the secondary hull's Warp 9.8 speeds. Hence the "extreme risk" as the secondary hull extends its speed boosting warp field around the saucer whilst simultaneously shifting its position aft and down in anticipation of the extended warp field bursting when maximum bubble size is reached, the saucer flying off under its own power and the two vessels safely departing at relative FTL velocities.

I'd call that pretty risky!

 

[Ithekro]

If it is not advised to seperate at warp speeds, than the warp sustainer wouldn't be normal operating procedure as it would not be used unless the ship's captain is doing something risky. Which would mean that the saucer would not normally be able to make it to any nearby star system if seperation is in deep space, as normal Starfleet sublight speeds would place a planet even one light year away at four years or more distant.

But having even the tiniest, or most limited capacity FTL system would at least make it possible for a deep space exploration vessel to be able to head for friendly space in case of the loss of the stardrive section. As backups go, that would seem logical.

 

[kirkfan]

But sublight is snail's pace compared to warp speed. It's barely worth moving at all at that speed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It would make better sense to have at least a nominal warp drive in the saucer section. Too bad the designers didn't put one in there.

 

[kirkfan]

It would make better sense to have at least a nominal warp drive in the saucer section. Too bad the designers didn't put one in there.

To think that Voyager's minuscule shuttles have warp speed and that gigantic saucer doesn't. How ironic!

 

[jimbotron]

Was it implied that the Enterprise-D shuttles have warp drive? It's highly impractical traveling in one without it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Was it implied that the Enterprise-D shuttles have warp drive? It's highly impractical traveling in one without it.

Yeah. I don't have a rundown, but think of the times that crew members went off in shuttles to other star systems. It's implied that at least some of the Ent-D shuttles are warp capable. Perhaps not all are, though.

 

[Ithekro]

Or low powered warp drives somehow behave differently than high powered drives? Different effects? TOS starfield rather that TNG streaks?

 

[kirkfan]

Or low powered warp drives somehow behave differently than high powered drives? Different effects? TOS starfield rather that TNG streaks?

When they go into transwarp they have sill another effect. You cans see it in Voyager's Distant Origin.

 

[Timo]

One might argue that the starfield behavior depends on where the "camera" is. If it sits outside the ship's warp field and tags along, the stars don't streak and don't even move much (they shouldn't, not even if the ship is moving at thousands of times the speed of light). But if it is inside the warp field, it will start experiencing some warp-related optical illusion, and the stars become streaks (the more intense, the deeper the camera is inside the field). And TOS was shot with cameras located outside the warp field of the ship whose adventures it documented...

When we see a warp field in TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before", it's a pulsating, possibly peristaltic thing (even before the Kosinski or Crusher modifications). For all we know, stars seen through such a field seem to travel past the ship from bow to stern, some of them distorting to elongated streaks - then cycle back to the bow, again crawling towards the stern, etc. And none of that is "real" from the outside POV.

As for the idea that the saucer has a "sustainer" and is out of luck if a warp launch is fumbled or not performed at all... If that were true, then LaForge should be shot for deliberately refusing to give the saucer a boost in "AoF".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As for the idea that the saucer has a "sustainer" and is out of luck if a warp launch is fumbled or not performed at all... If that were true, then LaForge should be shot for deliberately refusing to give the saucer a boost in "AoF".

Was it necessary to take the risk of separating at warp, or was the threat confined to Minos? I think the threat was confined to Minos. The ship was already out of range of the threat when they separated, because they returned to Minos at warp five.

Thanks for reminding me that "The Arsenal of Freedom" is where I got the idea of static discharge between the sections during separation. The computer says "static charge compensate" during the separation sequence, so apparently that is a legitimate concern, and not just a theoretical one.

 

[kirkfan]

I am glad they didn't use the saucer separation thing too often because it would have been annoying after a while.

 

[Timo]

A lot of things about Trek might have gotten annoying after a while. TOS had this "shuttlecraft launch" thing going on, with slow-paced footage that slowed down storytelling. Did it grow stale?

"Arsenal of Freedom" presents a confused case. If the threat is confined to the low orbit of Minos (it probably is), why send the saucer towards a starbase and needlessly expose it to the risks of interstellar travel? Why not just let it sit there and wait? Is LaForge afraid that with such passive orders, that annoying Logan guy would mutiny and sail back to Minos? (But that wouldn't happen any time soon unless the saucer had independent warp!)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kirkfan]

A lot of things about Trek might have gotten annoying after a while. TOS had this "shuttlecraft launch" thing going on, with slow-paced footage that slowed down storytelling. Did it grow stale?

"Arsenal of Freedom" presents a confused case. If the threat is confined to the low orbit of Minos (it probably is), why send the saucer towards a starbase and needlessly expose it to the risks of interstellar travel? Why not just let it sit there and wait? Is LaForge afraid that with such passive orders, that annoying Logan guy would mutiny and sail back to Minos? (But that wouldn't happen any time soon unless the saucer had independent warp!)

Timo Saloniemi

To me that order makes no sense unless the saucer is warp capable. Otherwise it's no different from ordering Logan to stay around. Years of travel at sublight speed are equivalent to likely less than an hour at warp 7 or 8.

 

[Timo]

We could pretend that "Proceed immediately to SB 103" is a command requiring Logan to contact a warp-capable towship for the trip to that necessarily somewhat distant starbase...

But LaForge would be acting wisely if the saucer indeed has independent warp propulsion, and perhaps also if it doesn't. It's already known that there's nothing on Minos for the ship to survey or rescue or interact with, except the landing party, which LaForge now plans to scoop up. Departing for SB 103 is what all parts of the ship will be doing on short notice anyway. And by so clearly ordering Logan to get a head start, LaForge can indeed stop the nuisance from messing it all up with independent action. There's no telling what Logan would choose to do, after all - he has vocally protested against both staying and leaving already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

As for the idea that the saucer has a "sustainer" and is out of luck if a warp launch is fumbled or not performed at all... If that were true, then LaForge should be shot for deliberately refusing to give the saucer a boost in "AoF"

If the saucer did indeed have a "sustainer" then that would run contrary to what we were told in EaF that saucer separation is "inadvisable at any warp speed". Why would you install a component to assist with an inadvisable manoever? Knowing starfleet captains, that's just asking for trouble!

As weird as it sounds, I don't think that the saucer was ever designed to act as anything other than a large lifeboat (although at a size more akin to a mobile mini-starbase).

As CorporalCaptain said above, the danger at Minos was restricted to the planet, so LaForge need have done no more than he did - deposit the saucer at a safe distance and with the opportunity to hide if need be.

This does return us to the problem with EaF and how the saucer covered such vast interstellar distances sublight - or did it????????

We are given no location or ETA with regard to Farpoint Station at the start of the episode, so the E-D could be only on the fringes of the Deneb system. Indeed, Picard's dialogue about the difficulty of the Farpoint mission could be seen as an appropriate reminder of the job they will start in the next hour or so (and fairly consistent with Season One Picard who only receives details of a mission when they are about to start it).

So, the E-D is on the outskirts of Deneb, beyond which is "the great unexplored mass of the galaxy". This is a step too far for Q (if we believe him) who decides that humanity has explored far enough. Shenanigans happen and the Enterprise warps off the way they came then flings the saucer off in another direction (which circles back to Farpoint which is no more than a few light hours away. The secondary hull does a 180 and proceed to engage Q or (from O'Brien's POV) continues on uninterrupted to Farpoint station. Some time later, at Farpoint, the two hulls recombine.

The saucer's travel time could be even shorter if Q engages the Enterprise within the Deneb system, but there's no reason to believe that Q-contact took place much further out.