Hmmm... a search of the board shows you've never used the terms "argumentative" or "cuss" prior to this message.
Care to hyperbole again?
Saucer separation. How does it work exactly?
- Thread starter urrutiap
- Start date
Care to hyperbole again?
The Apple
A trul
A truly careful search of the board would show that I have indeed told him that he likes to argue, unless a mod has removed the post at some point. I'll grant that I didn't use the word "cuss", but I think the point still stands. As I recall (I'm sure you'll want to go look now) I got two likes on that comment, indicating that a couple of people agreed. As for hyperbole, that would refer to exaggeration, not simple description.
Hmmm... a search of the board shows you've never used the terms "argumentative" or "cuss" prior to this message.
Care to hyperbole again?
A truly careful search of the board would show that I have indeed told him that he likes to argue, unless a mod has removed the post at some point. I'll grant that I didn't use the word "cuss", but I think the point still stands. As I recall (I'm sure you'll want to go look now) I got two likes on that comment, indicating that a couple of people agreed. As for hyperbole, that would refer to exaggeration, not simple description.
Right, that was it! Thanks!
I couldn't agree more. I said my piece and as far as I was concerned it was done, but Maurice saw fit to bring it up days later. Maybe you should direct your comment to him.
IIRC a lot of the Galaxy class ships we saw in the Dominion war were unfinished ships- rushed into battle without most in the interior completed. They had engines and weapons, just no extras like science labs, extensive crew quarters, etc...
Alternately, they were simply a new batch with more of everything, especially combat gear.
Or then less combat gear, since the originals had been built during the era of the Border Wars, while it was deep peacetime when these particular ships most probably were built...
If Starfleet could rush warships into the Dominion War, it probably would rush smaller types. We don't ever really see any: all ships with registries on them have "old", low, presumably prewar ones, and no all-new designs emerge, save for the early war kitbashes (which all feature low registries and most also parts from bygone eras) and the Defiants (which, while perhaps only ever finished to operational trim after languishing in mothballs for years, also all bear low registries - this usually being NCC-74205 for obvious reasons).
Timo Saloniemi
Or then less combat gear, since the originals had been built during the era of the Border Wars, while it was deep peacetime when these particular ships most probably were built...
If Starfleet could rush warships into the Dominion War, it probably would rush smaller types. We don't ever really see any: all ships with registries on them have "old", low, presumably prewar ones, and no all-new designs emerge, save for the early war kitbashes (which all feature low registries and most also parts from bygone eras) and the Defiants (which, while perhaps only ever finished to operational trim after languishing in mothballs for years, also all bear low registries - this usually being NCC-74205 for obvious reasons).
Timo Saloniemi
That's fan speculation, not canonical data. Also, if that were the case, why bother making a full-sized Galaxy class ship in the first place? Why not focus on building the stardrive section instead? Much less of a ship to make = faster construction.
There is no reason why an organization like the UFP with its technological ability and size couldn't mass produce fully completed (and upgraded) Galaxy class ships in a small time frame. It just doesn't make sense it would take months to build.
I realize the writers said that with replicators it becomes increasingly easy to just replicate ships into existence, but COME ON... this is where the UFP was really at in the 24th century.
There's 0 reason to artificially hamstrung it for the sake of drama, and they can easily scale up numerous replication processes with multiple industrial grade replicators run in a networked capacity (to increase pattern buffer size which also increases the size of the object you can replicate into existence from energy - which can be gotten from stars for example - on ships, M/AM would be primary source of power for replicators while in transit, but would still have capacity to replace shuttles (if not full sized, then in parts, followed by automated assembly) and repair hull damage very fast... otherwise they'd have to park in an uninhabited solar system and use the stars energy to direct it into replicators for creation of material goods like spare parts, larger hull repairs or extensive upgrades rather than syphon the energy from the Warp core and waste antimatter in the process).
Voyager had ample opportunity to showcase UFP technological ability for self-sufficiency in such a manner, but of course, due to writers lack of creativity or lack of willingness to use technology in such a manner, we never saw it happen (except for the fact we saw them using seemingly new shuttles after crashing older ones - which suggests VOY was able to make more shuttles from either replication in uninhabited star systems, or by going into said systems and recovering needed materials allowing them to repair the broken ones or build new shuttles - same applies to antimatter - can be made from omicron particles [and likely other processes] or traded from other species).
The fact the Dominion was willing to run kamikaze runs (which technically speaking should be stopped by shields to a point - say it takes 2 or 3 Jem Hadaar ships ramming a Galaxy class to overload its shields and another one to ram into a critical section to destroy it like we saw with the Odyssey) and clone Jem'Hadaar made them more of a threat as is (that and their intelligence network which allowed them to spy on the Federation, acquired their databases in the first 2 years of the Wormhole opening - so the Dominion had information advantage about technology and social structure of many AQ species from Federation databases alone - and prisoners they took in the process).
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I'd rather argue there's at least 1 reason, even if unknown, why the UFP can't do that - because we don't see examples of mass production in the one situation where it would make the greatest sense, the Dominion War.
Sure, we have numerous Galaxy class ships there. But also numerous Mirandas. This does not appear any different from the peacetime situation, nor do we observe a change towards newer types as the war progresses. It rather appears instead that Starfleet is always maxed out in terms of its ability to obtain new starships, and there isn't any means of increasing the rate of production - and/or accelerating the construction, even if more keels get laid. A war taking two years plus two more on the buildup is simply too short for the introduction of new starships...
This is a standing feature of Star Trek: that there are always fewer starships than needed, thus allowing for disasters to take place, and for the heroes to be the only ones available for sorting them out. Since hordes of people die as the result, it's unlikely to be a mere budgetary choice, and more likely to be some sort of a hard limit. What sort, remains to be decided!
Timo Saloniemi
Sure, we have numerous Galaxy class ships there. But also numerous Mirandas. This does not appear any different from the peacetime situation, nor do we observe a change towards newer types as the war progresses. It rather appears instead that Starfleet is always maxed out in terms of its ability to obtain new starships, and there isn't any means of increasing the rate of production - and/or accelerating the construction, even if more keels get laid. A war taking two years plus two more on the buildup is simply too short for the introduction of new starships...
This is a standing feature of Star Trek: that there are always fewer starships than needed, thus allowing for disasters to take place, and for the heroes to be the only ones available for sorting them out. Since hordes of people die as the result, it's unlikely to be a mere budgetary choice, and more likely to be some sort of a hard limit. What sort, remains to be decided!
Timo Saloniemi
I sort of imagine there would be a learning process involved, even if the mechanical connections are identical. A visiting saucer might need a handshake two days long to get properly integrated, and even the ability to travel along as inert baggage might require several minutes if not hours of adaptation before the IDFs agree to talk to each other.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
I don't see why a visiting saucer would need 2 days to integrate.
That's a ridiculously long amount of time for a technologically advanced civilization with FTL capabilities and transluminal computer processing.
Why are people making up these needless delays?
All necessary communications would have been done in transit (while the saucer and star drive are in the process of converging upon each other) and preparations done ahead of schedule.
All that would really be necessary is to merge computer data between the saucer and the stardrive, and that could likely be done in seconds and a few words to the computer from the stardrive command staff to authorize the visiting saucer.
Priority of command would likely fall to the stardrive section because if TNG is any indication, that's where the captain (or the CO) would be (the saucer is unlikely to have the captain as an evacuee).
The visiting saucer would likely contain regular crew, civilians and a few senior officers who have coordinated the saucer section.
Otherwise, Galaxy class ships are built to certain standards. It stands to reason they can interconnect with each other and a process was devised in case 2 galaxy class ships need to separate and each lose a section the others can connect to.
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Two days of lead time before the actual docking happens would probably help dodge the issues, yes. But it requires super-duper fictional technology to merge these complex things to satisfaction - it's merely a question of whether the fictional late 2300s have it down pat. And Starfleet isn't putting up a good showing there. How quickly could they "merge data" when a simple dumping of logs from a small ship or outpost into a portable memory unit takes aeons in the likes of "Second Chances"?
Of course, any such action actually taking place in an episode or movie would be subject to the requirements of drama. Is there extra drama to be had from the complexity of the task or not? It's just that realistically, the merging should be a massive chore. And the track record is spotty on which massive chores can be shrugged away and which cannot.
Timo Saloniemi
Of course, any such action actually taking place in an episode or movie would be subject to the requirements of drama. Is there extra drama to be had from the complexity of the task or not? It's just that realistically, the merging should be a massive chore. And the track record is spotty on which massive chores can be shrugged away and which cannot.
Timo Saloniemi
Saucer go whoosh.
Isn’t there a ‘kerchunk’ before that?
If Troi's driving, there is afterwards.
[For the record, I have no idea what the big deal was about Troi being at the helm. The stardrive section exploding clearly was the cause of the saucer's resulting joyride, and I really doubt anyone could have done any different.]
As for saucers and stardrives being functionally interchangeable, it's not like they're built EXACTLY the same even if they were from the same blueprints. Acceptable manufacturing defects and very minute differences in the superstructure parts mean that while flightworthy, no two ships are EXACTLY the same. All the parts "work into" each other over time, to the point that you can't simply force two jigsaw puzzle pieces together even though they look practically the same - and even if you did, it wouldn't hold together all the OTHER pieces those two pieces are attached to. I suspect that there's a smidge of this happening, even in a future where parts are created and assembled within fractions of a nanometer.
Mark
[For the record, I have no idea what the big deal was about Troi being at the helm. The stardrive section exploding clearly was the cause of the saucer's resulting joyride, and I really doubt anyone could have done any different.]
As for saucers and stardrives being functionally interchangeable, it's not like they're built EXACTLY the same even if they were from the same blueprints. Acceptable manufacturing defects and very minute differences in the superstructure parts mean that while flightworthy, no two ships are EXACTLY the same. All the parts "work into" each other over time, to the point that you can't simply force two jigsaw puzzle pieces together even though they look practically the same - and even if you did, it wouldn't hold together all the OTHER pieces those two pieces are attached to. I suspect that there's a smidge of this happening, even in a future where parts are created and assembled within fractions of a nanometer.
Mark
Doesn't make sense.
Automation would be doing construction, as such, all the parts WOULD be interchangeable... there would be 0 'manufacturing defects' because the UFP doesn't use Capitalism and cost efficiency to build ships... it uses superior synthetic materials which can be made in sustainable abundance while implementing technical efficiency.
The parts made on an assembly line are pretty much identical. There would be minor differences on some levels, but mainly to design.
Otherwise, you can get same hood, same engine, same battery, etc. for a given 'class of a car'. Same would be with the Galaxy class ships.
They'd have to be completely interchangeable for the sake of simplicity and easy/fast repairs (if they are needed).
Heck, the modularity on Federation ships alone allows different classes of ships to be upgraded with components from a different class.
I would love to see instead of the typical saucer tbey attached a specialized version packed with heavy weapons and power generators to support them.
The Klingon Vor'Cha was designed with a swappable front module for different mission uses but they never did follow up with that idea
The Klingon Vor'Cha was designed with a swappable front module for different mission uses but they never did follow up with that idea
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