I'm sure people could just send him checks instead of going to the theater.
Sam Rami to direct Dr Strange 2
- Thread starter StCoop
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If its work for hire, they don't deserve anything that isn't stipulated in a legal agreement. They get paid to write and/or draw stories for a company. If they want to make creator owned comics they are welcome to do so, but if they want to work for DC/Marvel then they don't own the work. Anyone who does the work knows this going in, DC/Marvel aren't pulling a fast one on anyone. Complaining that you aren't getting paid what you aren't owed is ridiculous. People in the comic book industry can work for the big two and potentially have a big (for comics) audience and tell stories in those universes, or they can try to be successful at creator owned stuff, which is definitely a higher risk of failure and probably a lesser chance of even making a living when you consider the size of the market.
I know I don't usually read creator owned work even from people I like from work at DC/Marvel, and that is definitely not uncommon even as comics have become more and more of a niche audience. So if Joe Kelly wanted money for Chavez, he should have taken the idea to Image or a company like that. But, he wanted the Marvel paycheck, and he has no right to whine about it at this stage. Same with people like Steve Gerber fighting over Howard the Duck, or the families of the Superman creators who kept trying to get money from DC.
In this case, Disney/Marvel has no obligation, legally or morally, to give any creators anything unless there was a specific deal in place saying otherwise, and in my opinion they shouldn't.
I know I don't usually read creator owned work even from people I like from work at DC/Marvel, and that is definitely not uncommon even as comics have become more and more of a niche audience. So if Joe Kelly wanted money for Chavez, he should have taken the idea to Image or a company like that. But, he wanted the Marvel paycheck, and he has no right to whine about it at this stage. Same with people like Steve Gerber fighting over Howard the Duck, or the families of the Superman creators who kept trying to get money from DC.
In this case, Disney/Marvel has no obligation, legally or morally, to give any creators anything unless there was a specific deal in place saying otherwise, and in my opinion they shouldn't.
It's Joe Casey, not Kelly.
Wasn't he also the one who did that moron story about Nightcrawler being made into the Pope so some evil Nun could also reveal him as a fake Anti-Christ?
No that was Chuck Austen, who must have had some good blackmail photos in the early 2000s as Marvel and DC both gave him lots of high-profile jobs despite a total lack of talent.
Oops.It's Joe Casey, not Kelly.
For me... will America Chavez have a significant role in the movie? Or just kinda there for a couple of things? So how much money he should get to me relates to her necessity to the story (as opposed to settingher up for POSSIBLE future projects).
Definitely a movie my, my family, and other people, are highly anticipating.
Definitely a movie my, my family, and other people, are highly anticipating.
Yes, and there isn't any reason whatsoever that they couldn't add something about payouts when the characters are used in other media into the contracts.
You should check some out, there are some amazing creator owned comics out there. I've been reading Monstress and Chew and they are amazing.
But you have to be able to see where it would a little annoying when you see characters that you created and spent years writing are making the company billions of dollars, and you can't even pay your medical bills. It would be nice to see them get something more to recognize how big of an impact their contribution to the company has made.
That's up to the writers/artists/etc to deal with when getting hired, I'm assuming Marvel/DC would just laugh at them and tell them no if they tried to add in stuff like that, and rightfully so.
I've read a few, but since I pretty much only like superhero comics (or comics based on licensed properties like Star Wars or Power Rangers) that eliminates a lot of them, and even 99% of creator owned superhero comics I just find to be inferior versions of the big 2 companies heroes, Gail Simone's Welcome to Tranquility and Leaving Megalopolis series being notable exceptions to that rule. Even then, Simone's non-superhero creator owned stuff, like Crosswind Clean Room, tends to be crap. There is a reason comics not published by DC/Marvel have basically no chance of even reaching the sales numbers of those companies, they're usually just not good enough.
I understand why they feel the way they do, but I'm just saying that no body tricked them into their situation. They did work with properties DC/Marvel owned, and in the process made a few more characters/etc to add to those universes, with the knowledge that they had no rights to the characters they created in that context. DC/Marvel are not responsible for the welfare of writers/artists of comics, the companies hired people to do work, the people got paid for their work, and thats it. To be clear, I feel bad for (to use an example that comes to mind immediately) someone like Bill Mantlo, but he doesn't deserve extra money for Rocket Racoon because he was in a tragic accident that had nothing to do with Marvel.
Thats not to say that DC/Marvel can't screw people over, companies tend to do that, but when it comes to work for hire stuff all the people involved went into the situation knowing the score.
DC and Marvel are the only real game in town for mainstream comics, they'll never be without hordes of talented people wanting to work for them. Neither company has ever really been hurt by big names leaving, and only a few big names have ever left and never returned (not counting people that passed away or completely retired, obviously). For every Ed Brubaker who quits mainstream comics to write shitty noir comics that nobody reads, there are probably a dozen people as good if not better then him waiting to take the spot.
I don't see where it's that outrageous of an idea, TV writers get some money when other productions use characters they created, even though the company owns the characters. That's why we got Kira Nerys and Tom Paris, instead of Ro Laren and Thomas Locarno (damn, I can't believe I actually remembered Locarno's name without looking it up) on DS9 and VOyager. There's no reason they couldn't do something similar for comics, with the writers getting some money each time they pop up in a movie or TV show, or even just the first time. These companies are making insane amounts of money, I'm pretty sure tossing a few thousand dollars to the people who created the characters isn't going to bankrupt them.
You should really check out more non-superhero comics, there's a lot of great stuff out there that has nothing to do with people in tights and capes punching the crap out of each other. I've been working my way through Chew and Monstress, and they are both awesome, especially Monstress. Monstress has a great story, fascinating worldbuilding, and the most gorgeous art I have ever seen in a comic book. Chew is just a lot of goofy fun.
I'm not saying they should give over all the rights to the characters, just that it wouldn't hurt them to give people who create characters who go on to appear in movies and TV shows that become huge hits, a little more money as recognition of how successful their creation has been for the company.
DC/Marvel are not responsible for the welfare of writers/artists of comics, the companies hired people to do work, the people got paid for their work, and thats it. To be clear, I feel bad for (to use an example that comes to mind immediately) someone like Bill Mantlo, but he doesn't deserve extra money for Rocket Racoon because he was in a tragic accident that had nothing to do with Marvel.
Thats not to say that DC/Marvel can't screw people over, companies tend to do that, but when it comes to work for hire stuff all the people involved went into the situation knowing the score.
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But when they started working for Marvel they probably didn't expect the company to be making literally billions of dollars off of their work.
But if more people start speaking out and Marvel doesn't change how they do things, then there's a pretty good chance more people will decide to go somewhere where they get more recognition, and there won't be hordes of talented people wanting to work for them.
That would literally destroy the Big 2. Ro and Locarno (and T'Pau, who was going to be on Enterprise but they switched to T'Pol for the same reason they switched Locarno) could never be used without paying the writers a fee, and that fee was too much for the TV shows to deal with on a regular basis. Comics have an even smaller profit margin nowadays, can you imagine how screwed DC comics would be if, say, Gerry Conway needed to be paid to even mention Jason Todd? They'd just never use the character. Work for hire is the best thing for comics, we wouldn't have the DC/Marvel universes without the practice, and luckily I doubt it will ever go away. Anyone who doesn't like it can just go do some other kind of work, or try to go independant.
Besides which, most characters that get popular in other media get changed a lot. Does Gerry Conway deserve money for Jason Todd, when he had nothing to do with Red Hood? How about Liefeld for Deadpool, when he had nothing to do with any of the elements that made deadpool popular?
I just don't like non-superhero/licensed stuff. I'm not saying anything about the general quality of indy stuff, I'm just not the audience. Give me superheroes or licensed stuff from non-comic franchises, and I'm at least willing to give it a chance, but that's about it for me, its just a personal taste thing.
It might hurt, it could make people be more obnoxious with demands as time goes by, which would definitely hurt comics.
I mean, a lot of Marvel and characters have been very popular long before the MCU, people knew about the potential of making a character as popular as Spider-Man or Superman, even if it didn't happen as much. But, they'd still have worked for Marvel/DC for the same reason people still do, they're the biggest games in town, and have no real competition in the comic space. America Chavez would never have been in a movie if Kelly had written her as an indy project, she's in a movie because she got popular as part of the Marvel universe.
No one will give them more recognition in comics. The vast majority of even comic book readers couldn't name 99.9% of Image Comics output, and they're the closest to a #3 comic company. Marvel and DC will never have to worry about a lack of talent, although they do sometimes hire fairly untalented people for work they don't care much about (there are a lot of bad fill in artists in the industry, and then you have actually terrible people like Scott Lobdell who get work for years even though they're both terrible at their job and terrible as people).
That is indeed the reason.
I agree there's no real argument to be made that Marvel and DC should just casually be expected to fork over a bunch of extra money to people who signed up to do work for hire knowing that royalties weren't a part of the package.
That said, there's absolutely nothing strange or in any way 'dangerous' to these companies about the argument that the modern movie boom has fundamentally changed the value of these characters and maybe the creators' contracts from here on out should reflect that.
Giving people royalties for high value projects like movies does not mean the contracts automatically have to involve adding royalties for every single time a character is mentioned in a comic, and there is absolutely zero argument to be made that an even remotely successful movie can't afford some minor royalties for the comics writers or that allowing for such things would come even remotely close to 'destroying' Marvel or DC.
Though I do agree it's a thorny issue trying to decide who really deserves 'credit' when discussing characters that have been heavily altered over time. And, just to re-iterate, this is specifically in regards to contracts moving forwards. There is no reasonable basis to suddenly renegotiate every single contract these companies signed over the past 70+ years.
That said, there's absolutely nothing strange or in any way 'dangerous' to these companies about the argument that the modern movie boom has fundamentally changed the value of these characters and maybe the creators' contracts from here on out should reflect that.
Giving people royalties for high value projects like movies does not mean the contracts automatically have to involve adding royalties for every single time a character is mentioned in a comic, and there is absolutely zero argument to be made that an even remotely successful movie can't afford some minor royalties for the comics writers or that allowing for such things would come even remotely close to 'destroying' Marvel or DC.
Though I do agree it's a thorny issue trying to decide who really deserves 'credit' when discussing characters that have been heavily altered over time. And, just to re-iterate, this is specifically in regards to contracts moving forwards. There is no reasonable basis to suddenly renegotiate every single contract these companies signed over the past 70+ years.
But it wouldn't destroy Disney or WB, and since they're the ones making the movies/TV shows they'd probably be the ones paying out.
Indeed, the "we'd have to pay the writers" thing would not have been a factor, since Ro was created by Michael Piller, DS9's co-creator and exec for the first couple of seasons. In other words, he'd have been using his own character.
I'm curious what exactly America Chavez's role is in the story, the trailers have shown quite a bit of footage with her in it, but in all of it she's just kind of in the background. It makes wonder if there's some reason that showing more of her than that would spoil something they don't want people to know about yet.
And how exactly do you pronounce the actress playing her's first name? Zho-chit-el?
Marvel had also released some new character posters for Strange, Scarlet Witch, America, Wong, Mordo, and Christine Palmer.
And how exactly do you pronounce the actress playing her's first name? Zho-chit-el?
Marvel had also released some new character posters for Strange, Scarlet Witch, America, Wong, Mordo, and Christine Palmer.
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