Saavik's Pregnancy

[Reverend]

I think as far as the practicalities of Pon Farr goes, all we really know is that every seven years of an adult Vulcan's life they MUST mate. That doesn't mean it's the ONLY time they CAN mate. Of course even if a Vulcan couple breeds only once (or twice if they're not "synched") for a race that lives up to 350 years that's not a major problem.
The fight to the death bit was probably put in place by early Vulcan societies as a substitute - not a pleasant thought but this is probably because the Vulcan equivalent of adrenalin and endorphins that comes with killing a foe in mortal combat is not unlike that generated by a powerful climax. I'm sure the marquis de sade held a similar opinion. The ritual itself was most likely a way to formalise and settle breeding disputes and at the same time satisfy the biological imperative.

Anyway, as far as the topic goes, as has been stated numerous times the most logical scenario is that Saavik did have sex with the adolescent Spock (the finger touching is a dead give away) and while her being pregnant isn't strictly canon, it is supported by circumstantial evidence. Exhibit-A: She stayed on Vulcan, apparantly with Amanda, instead of returning to Earth, Exhibit-B: the aforementioned look she shared with Spock on Mt Seleya, Exhibit-C: Picard implied that he attended Spock's wedding - though at this point any child of Spock from this union would be about 45 years old, so it's very circumstantial. Personally, I prefer to believe she was preggers, for two reasons. Firstly that it was in the shooting script (I believe) and that is what the actors were playing from and secondly there's nothing to contradict it.

 

[Basill]

Yes. I agree. And they named him "Spavid."

 

[Therin of Andor]

I of course was referring to the canon stuff

Yes I know, but always worth noting when TAS or the book/comic/gaming tie-ins get in there first!

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think as far as the practicalities of Pon Farr goes, all we really know is that every seven years of an adult Vulcan's life they MUST mate. That doesn't mean it's the ONLY time they CAN mate.

So says DC Fontana, too.

 

[Nebusj]

Trivial notes: There was never any indication that females even underwent Pon Farr until T'Pol on Enterprise. Conversely, there was never any indication that only males underwent it until Saavik specified "Vulcan males must endure it every seventh year..." in TheSearch For Spock.

... except when Spock said in ``The Cloud Minders'' that , ``The seven-year cycle is biologically inherent in all Vulcans. At that time, the mating drive outweighs all other motivations.''

Nothing to suggest that Vulcan's can't or don't have sex outside that cycle, but that when the time of pon farr comes, they better pay attention to it. (Note that ``Amok Time'' says absolutely nothing about pon farr being periodic, although Spock's analogies to mating cycles are suggestive.)

 

[Timo]

The canonically untold backstory of Saavik certainly is one of those pieces that makes perfect sense, is not dramatically necessary but never feels dramatically contrived, either... It's a damn shame the story couldn't be concluded by having Saavik play the traitor role in ST6.

Regarding male Pon Farr as a mate-choosing urge, this would tie in nicely with the usual male performances of the animal kingdom. After the mate- or harem-establishing battle, the male often is too tired to actually go for sex for quite some time. And if he has only secured a single mate, it might be some time before he finds her properly in heat.

As for synching the Pon Farr cycles, not even "Bounty" actually establishes that the female cycle would be seven years sharp, or even be much of a cycle. Nor does T'Pol confirm that she has never had this bout before: all we learn that right now, "it is not time" and the unfortunate lack of a Vulcan mate will cause death. Females might have their Pon Farr fairly often, possibly as a fertility cycle, and only the telepathic bonding with a male (or, in this case, the freak infection) would launch the full mate-or-die version of it.

But as Basill says, all we have so far is, surprisingly enough, a collection of exceptions and special cases...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Basill]

... except when Spock said in ``The Cloud Minders'' that , ``The seven-year cycle is biologically inherent in all Vulcans. At that time, the mating drive outweighs all other motivations.''

I missed that reference. Thank you very much indeed.

Also, very good points Timo.

 

[Kio]

We also know from Cloud Minders that Vulcans can/do mate more than once every 7 years. After Spock tells the alien he's flirting with about pon farr, she asks if there is nothing that can disturb this cycle. Spock replies, "Extreme feminine beauty is always disturbing." To me, that means he was up for it.


About having to either fight or mate, in Voyager we learned that rigorous meditation can also work if done correctly. Also, Tuvok got through by mating with a holographic recreation of his wife.

To be sure, we've never truly heard of a couple actually having sex at the completion of Pon Farr.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, but we had a passing mention in Voyager. Tuvok received a letter from his wife saying that one of his children went through his first pon farr and Tuvok now had a granddaughter.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Seems like pretty conclusive evidence.

 

[Bad Atom]

I like to think the second Kirk and Co. flew off, Saavik ran to the nearest abortion clinic.

 

[Tralah]

^Bah! That's a sad thought.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Why would she do it, anyway?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

I recall reading somewhere that it was toyed with briefly that have Valeris be the child from the Spock-Saavik union, and that because of her conception on Genesis, she matured at an accelerated rate. Hence, why she was grown and serving in Starfleet.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

That would have been interesting.

 

[Commander Richard]

^ Personally, I can't say I would have liked that idea.

Yeah, I'm bumping an old thread because I've been reading up on Saavik, Curtis and Alley and found some interesting stuff.

IIRC, after Spock had is Katra moved back into him - there was the scene when he was looking at all his crewmates - the scene where he looks at Saavik, and I think she avoids his gaze - almost embarrassingly, may possibly be on-screen evidence that there was something that happened between them back on Genesis.

Robin Curtis gives an interesting talk at a convention and she addresses her reaction during that scene and how Nimoy prepared her for it. You can see it starting at the 5:39 mark.

By the way, Today is Curtis' 60th birthday, so Happy Birthday Robin Curtis!

 

[Greg Cox]

We know that they endure Pon Farr every 7 years. I don't recall anything saying that this is the *only* time they have sex.

As I recall, D.C. Fontana felt strongly that, of course, Vulcans could have sex outside of Pon Farr and gave Spock a love affair in her novel, VULCAN'S GLORY, to explicitly refute the idea that Vulcans could only have sex every seven years.

I also remember seeing Nimoy at a convention shortly before before ST III came out, during which he teased the audience by hinting that there might be a touch of sex in the upcoming movie. I've always assumed that he was alluding to the pon farr scene between Saavik and Teen Spock.

For what's worth, I went with the half-Romulan backstory the last time I wrote Saavik, but was deliberately cryptic about what exactly went on between her and Spock on the Genesis Planet . . ..

 

[borgboy]

I could swear I remember there being something in the STIII novelization that suggested that not only were David and Saavik lovers but that they were practicing some kind of bio rhythmic birth control or something. I was pretty young when I read it and didn't quite know what it all meant.
Unless I'm really remembering that wrong that should exempt David from being the father of Saavik's hypothetical child.
I read the comics last year with Saavik and Xon. The whole Pon Farr thing was strange. It seemed like Saavikk really got things under control once she met up with him even though there was no time gap in the story to allow for sex (or fighting) and then at the end they're all still just hanging out and I believe in the next issue he was just gone without it being commented on.
For what it's worth, I think Saavik having Spock's child could've been interesting, but either way it's a shame that Saavik was just dropped unceremoniously from the movies. I liked Curtis and Alley both, and think the character added something. Another female character was welcome. Her relationships with the crew outside of Spock weren't developed much.
The novels have continued Saavik's story without ever giving her a child, although she does marry Spock in the Vulcan's Heart novel, which I always found very awkward considering their relationship is also developed in other books with him being both like a father to her, and her having been taken in as a foster child by Sarek and Amanda.

 

[Kor]

Whoa... strong bump.

I think it's pretty clear from the "It is called Pon Farr" exchange and the finger foreplay that something special was about to happen between them. Otherwise Spock would have died. They don't have to show all the details.

Kor

 

[Greg Cox]

For the record, Robin Curtis has stated that she expected to Saavik to be pregnant after the pon farr business in ST III and was disappointed that the movies didn't go there, so clearly her understanding of that scene was that there was going to be more than finger-touching going on . . . .

 

[Marsden]

Vulcan sex seems to be a very popular topic lately.

Just for the sake of saying it, if the 7 year thing is really a "thing" and Spock seemed to be aging rapidly, there was probably the 21 yr, 28 yr, 35 yr, 42 yr, 49 yr and possibly the 56 yr time so I think Saavik probably got quite a bit.